Plumbing Leak in Duplex

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Plumbing Leak in Duplex

Art M.
Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes

My duplex has water leaking through the downstairs bathroom ceiling (link). Upstairs, the toilet is directly above this. I had a contractor come before. He lifted up the upstairs toilet and there was water around the pipe. He replaced the wax seal and caulked the empty space around it.

http://tinypic.com/r/2zdyhjm/9

http://tinypic.com/r/23rmja9/9

The issue didn't go away and I had another contractor come. He confirmed it's the toilet and said it's possible the first contractor did a bad job and if he re-seals the toilet, that will be enough. He says that might not be the source though and we have to open the wall to see what the issue is.

Judging by the pictures, is anyone here able to get an idea of what's going on? Do you think I need to open the wall? This guy said he'd open the wall and do an inspection for $200. That's not counting actually repairing it and he said I'd need to hire someone else to repair the drywall once the water issue is fixed. Does that sound right or should I be able to find someone who can quote me more precisely and do the entire job, drywall included?

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Michael Boyer
Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes
9y

Here's another angle if the toilet repair does not fix it. Not sure if you have looked at a possible sweating cold pipe in the walls. For example, a cold water supply pipe above that vent might have warm moist bathroom air from the downstairs shower/bath migrate and condense on the cold surface causing a drip drop minor leak. Hence the parallel water spots.

Just from what I see (the small, parallel water marks) this could be consistent with a cold water supply pipe running vertically above the lower bath (in the cavity) and warm moist air contacting it. For that matter, the toilet can sweat, too, explaining some of that water the plumber saw.

I had this happen once. I insulated the cold water pipe (with the flexible black kind with adhesive strip) and blocked the passage for warm moist air to get into the wall cavity. So far so good. I was able to do it from an adjoining unfinished laundry, so I did not have to open the wall.

Making sure the lower and upper bath have good ventilation (powerful, working exhaust fan). That might help. Or you could try a dehumidifier, too. 

But the larger fix may be something like a mixing valve or insulating those cold pipes or adding ventilation. It would probably not hurt to look at the cause now.

Best of luck.

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  • Dale Walker
    Investor · Rigby, ID · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 45 votes
    9y

    Art......

    Question for you. Is the leak constant or only when the upstair tenant flushes the toilet? It is possible that the seal on the toilet is bad and it is leaking. It is also possible a water line is leaking at the valve to the toilet. I would use a drywall knife ($10) and open a 1 foot x 1 foot hole in the drywall directly above the leak. Take a look up and see where the leak is coming from. $200 is a little steep for me for 10 minutes of work just to cut the ceiling.  I would find a different handyman. I would have the toilet pulled again and see what the seal is doing. It will need a new wax ring anyway when you pull it. Be sure the wax rings they put in are tall enough to sit the toilet correctly. If the flange is too low, it may not make a seal with the toilet and water/sewage can get past the wax ring. Any water damage to the floor around the toilet? Water tends to warp the wood floors around a leak.  

    Once you find where the leak is coming from you can have it fixed. Once fixed, you may be able to use the same drywall you cut out and patch it back in. Look at youtube videos if you have any questions. You will need to mud and sand down the patch and repaint the area or even the entire ceiling if the color differences are significant (or get someone to do it). a Handyman may charge you about $100 to do it. 

    I can't give you a quote on the entire job because we have not established a cause of the leak. Replacing a leaky valve is probably a $75-$100 job for a plumber.  Resitting a toilet should be about $50-100$ if you hire someone. 

    Good luck. Let me know if you have any questions.

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  • Dan D.
    Investor · Shakopee, MN · Member since 2014 · 219 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    Without seeing the toilet in person, it's hard to determine, but toilets can leak via the wax ring, which was just replaced, or it can be from the tank itself.

    If it's leaking from the tank, you would notice it being wet or dripping from the supply line running into the tank.  Feel around if it's wet there.

    If it isn't, where is the moisture?  The other place for it to leak would be around the toilet seat after flushing.  So the tank holds the water fine, but when you flush it, the water goes through a bad seal around the toilet and down and around the outside and that's where your leak is.

    It is less likely that the plumbing in the wall or floor is bad.  Usually copper or pex is run with the joints being visible, and pipe doesn't just start leaking too often where there is not a joint unless if something has been moving it causing wear / vibration  or something else that would damage the pipe behind the wall or below the floor over time.

    In any case, you will likely need to do some drywall repair to make things look new and perfect again which will make your tenant happy.  Not to mention, you would probably want to remove any water soaked drywall anyway because it could have been damaged or started to get moldy.

    Do what's right for the tenant.

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  • Deanna McCormick
    Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    We had a leak that seem like from the toilet.. how far away is the tub??

    Ours was the shower valve connection behind the shower wall, the water seeped between the shower wall and behind the tub faucet area , and then and drained toward the toilet area, only when the shower head was used. it was hard to track .

    So might not be the toilet.. we thought that also was our first go round.. 

    If it's easier to open up the back side common wall with out disturbing the shower surround do that before ceiling,under the leak, the water is coming from above and ceiling opening is just probably not going to  give you a clear point of where to start repair all the fittings and valves are up to high 

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  • Deanna McCormick
    Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Also check the tub trap.. 

    0Reply
  • Art M.
    OP
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    Thank you for the replies.

    @Dale Walker 

    It's not leaking constantly. It seems to leak when the toilet flushes. When you stand by the damaged wall while the toilet flushes, you can hear that the pipe is right there.

    @Dan D.

    There's no water around the toilet and the toilet is caulked down.

    Do the three symmetrical, linear water spots tell you anything? It looks like something carrying water with equidistant seals or whatever is leaking. If it's just leaking at the source, how can it form those types of marks?

    The contractor wasn't able to quote me the actual work. He said he wouldn't know until he sees the problem. Is that normal? I think I want someone else to come look at it. $200 to open up a wall is crazy. Does anyone have a recommendation for a plumber in Chicago?

    1Reply
  • Dan D.
    Investor · Shakopee, MN · Member since 2014 · 219 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    It's hard to say why there are three water spots like that.  They could all be along the same joist, or maybe an area where there are drywall screws and thus the water is coming through more there.  I'd pop that vent cover off and feel around.  But first you want to stop the leak wherever it is.  It sounds like you need a new seal between the toilet and the tank if it leaks when it flushes.  

    Dry the toilet off.  Put paper towels or newspaper around when you flush it to help determine the area of the leak.

    0Reply
  • Art M.
    OP
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    @Dan D.

    There's no water coming from the exterior of the toilet.

    0Reply
  • Dan D.
    Investor · Shakopee, MN · Member since 2014 · 219 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    Ah...  in that case when the toilet flushes, wherever your waste pipe runs, it's getting wet and it probably runs along the pipe and maybe resting on a joist, then coming down to those three spots.  (Do they line up with your joists?)

    I'd pop that vent cover off and feel around.  Get a flashlight in there and take some video with your phone.   Or just cut it out and have a plumber fix it for a couple hundred bucks and have someone patch it back up.

    Actually, I might just tell the plumber to do whatever is necessary to fix it and get someone out to patch the drywall just to correct the issue and put it in my rear view mirror.

    0Reply
  • Art M.
    OP
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    @Dan D.

    Good idea about the vent. Thank you. I'll do that and see if I can figure anything out. your last point sounds very tempting, but obviously the priciest...

    0Reply
  • Sam Shueh
    Real Estate Agent · Cupertino, CA · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    What is close to the beginning of the stain on top right side?  I will probe around that area, valve, piping.  I had one squirting mist from a copper plumbing sitting on a gravel after cutting through the floor.

    0Reply
  • Nick Patterson
    Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 386 posts · 218 votes
    9y

    Got a lot of response here.  But I love that EVERY contractor I have ever meet with bad mouths the previous contractor's work.  "What was he thinking!" etc...  Everytime!!

    0Reply
  • Michael Boyer
    Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes
    9y

    Here's another angle if the toilet repair does not fix it. Not sure if you have looked at a possible sweating cold pipe in the walls. For example, a cold water supply pipe above that vent might have warm moist bathroom air from the downstairs shower/bath migrate and condense on the cold surface causing a drip drop minor leak. Hence the parallel water spots.

    Just from what I see (the small, parallel water marks) this could be consistent with a cold water supply pipe running vertically above the lower bath (in the cavity) and warm moist air contacting it. For that matter, the toilet can sweat, too, explaining some of that water the plumber saw.

    I had this happen once. I insulated the cold water pipe (with the flexible black kind with adhesive strip) and blocked the passage for warm moist air to get into the wall cavity. So far so good. I was able to do it from an adjoining unfinished laundry, so I did not have to open the wall.

    Making sure the lower and upper bath have good ventilation (powerful, working exhaust fan). That might help. Or you could try a dehumidifier, too. 

    But the larger fix may be something like a mixing valve or insulating those cold pipes or adding ventilation. It would probably not hurt to look at the cause now.

    Best of luck.

    1Reply
  • Art M.
    OP
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 414 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    Thank you all for the suggestions. I see there are lots of different possibilities for the issue. I know zero about plumbing and talking with these contractors is tough because I'm at a complete informational disadvantage. So what would you suggest? Lift the toilet up again, open the wall, or both?

    Does $200 just to lift the toilet and open and "inspect" the wall sound steep to you all too? Should I have a few more people come check it out? I could cut open the wall myself, but I'd have no idea where to go from there. And now my tenant has a hole in his wall while I schedule another contractor to come out. What's my course of action here?

    0Reply
  • Kyle Hipp
    Investor · Appleton, WI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 464 votes
    9y

    I like the wax less rings now instead of the traditional wax rings. They fit directly into the drain pipe on cup over the toilet waste flange. They are about $6 compared to $3 for a wax ring but work better and are reusable. Also it is not wise to caulk around the base of the toilet. That traps any Leak in there causing more damage to the subfloor and takes longer to find out their is a leak. 

    As for your course of action. I can't see the pictures for some reason but I would find a stud on the first floor and cut out the drywall over a stud so you have something to reattach it to. Then you can see what is leaking when you have someone flush the toilet above. $200 is too much to hire someone to cut a hole and inspect. A good handyman should be able to inspect, repair the leak and patch and finish the drywall for $200.or less.

    0Reply
  • Dale Walker
    Investor · Rigby, ID · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 45 votes
    9y

    Art,

    I think the next best step is to get a handyman to cut a piece of drywall under the toilet. I would then have the handyman look at the toilet pipes when I flush the toilet above. That may give him an idea of where the water is coming from. If that can't be identified, pull the toilet and reseal it. Once the leak has been fixed, have the handyman patch the wall. A reasonable cost should be $200-300 if they pull the toilet, replace/repair the drywall.  I suggest you pay attention to what he does and you will learn alot. 

    BTW.....I knew nothing about plumbing before I bought rentals as well. Paying handymen/contractors and watching them has saved me alot of money over the years. I thought it was money well spent. Youtube has a tutorial on just about everything.  My rule has been, if I don't feel comfortable doing it myself, hire it out and watch. 

    0Reply
  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    9y

    Most likely it is from the sewer Drain Pipe from the toilet, which is between the 2nd story floor and the ceiling below.  Would need to open up the ceiling.

    0Reply
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