Investor · Montclair, NJ · Member since 2015 · 150 posts · 23 votes
Hi - we bought a 2 bed condo last year from Fannie Mae and subsequently rented it to a young couple with a baby. We understand the previous owner (before Fannie foreclosed it) had died in the unit a couple of years ago.
The tenants called us today and said that some neighbors mentioned that there was a prior death in the unit and that they are worried about hygiene issues for their baby from the carpet (the carpet is v clean and looks good in the bedrooms but is the same as the prior owners). They have requested that we change the carpet due to these hygiene issues for the baby.
The couple is also generally a high maintenance couple (this is their first ever rental) and has been calling pretty consistently over minor issues. we have been tolerant so far.
How would you advise we approach this - what is our obligation and should we have any legal concerns. the property is in NJ.
Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
Did you have the carpet professionally cleaned prior to their tenancy? If not, have that done now. Did the previous owner die of a communicable disease that can be transmitted by contact with surfaces such as a carpet? Has anyone been living in the apartment between the deceased owner and this tenant?
Make sure the carpet has been thoroughly cleaned. Present information from a reliable source, such as the public health department, that a situation of a communicable disease doesn't not exist. Offer the tenant the opportunity to continue to rent the home, or to put in their legal notice to vacate.
Basically, you are renting the unit "as is". Meet them halfway be offering to let them move out, without consequence. If they have a lease, let them break the lease without penalty. It's best not to force people into a situation in which they don't feel safe. Whether their concerns are justified, or just based on their perceptions.
Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
Did you have the carpet professionally cleaned prior to their tenancy? If not, have that done now. Did the previous owner die of a communicable disease that can be transmitted by contact with surfaces such as a carpet? Has anyone been living in the apartment between the deceased owner and this tenant?
Make sure the carpet has been thoroughly cleaned. Present information from a reliable source, such as the public health department, that a situation of a communicable disease doesn't not exist. Offer the tenant the opportunity to continue to rent the home, or to put in their legal notice to vacate.
Basically, you are renting the unit "as is". Meet them halfway be offering to let them move out, without consequence. If they have a lease, let them break the lease without penalty. It's best not to force people into a situation in which they don't feel safe. Whether their concerns are justified, or just based on their perceptions.
Rental Property Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2014 · 308 posts · 144 votes
10y
If they are high maintenance, my inclination would be to say no. However, because I'm not an expert at cleaning up dead bodies, I'd ask your local crime scene clean up company what their opinion was. If you can't find them, call the police and ask who they use. It's usually a private company that comes in and cleans up all the gore for a fee.
I'm of the notion that this is a business and I'm more than happy to try to make my customers happy, but if they are high maintenance, at some point, you're going to have to be the "bad guy" and say no.
For example, I've got a tenant who is ALWAYS late with the rent. She pays the late fees no problems, but my property manager is constantly having to chase her down for the rent. On top of that, she's had nothing but excuses and has lied about where the rent was (rent was in the mail on the 10th she claims, but envelope is not stamped until the 13th)
She actually had the nerve to come to me and ask for a complete bathroom remodel. Nevermind that there's nothing wrong with the bathroom, she just wanted a jetted tub, tile floors, and a new vanity she saw at home depot. All told, it was north of $5,000 just in parts. I told my property manager to tell her flat out no. That was almost an entire year's worth of profits for that property. On top of THAT amount of nerve from her, then she had the nerve to say she'd go in half's with me.
My thought was: "Well, if you can afford half of the bathroom remodel, why can't you pay your rent?" and "If she bails on me, I'll be on the hook for the entire amount".
High maintenance people are a pain, but just do your research with a crime scene clean up company and their opinion, and be firm if the answer is no.
Investor · Montclair, NJ · Member since 2015 · 150 posts · 23 votes
10y
@Account Closed thanks both!
1. We had the unit deep cleaned before leasing. I will find out from the Fannie Mae broker how Fannie had the unit cleaned so that I also have that info. Yes, the unit was vacant from when he died to when we purchased it (with Fannie in the middle as owner)
2. NJ does not have disclosure laws regarding death in the unit so we learnt of that ourselves after our purchase. I will find out how the person died - I understand they died from a heart attack but will check. I looked up www.diedinhouse.com but that shows no deaths in the unit!
3. We have offered that they can move out if they want and that we will work something out with them - this might be the better solution if they have an issue with death in the unit. However, the point the couple made was that we change the carpet due to hygiene issues and not that they are feeling uncomfortable.
Investor · Montclair, NJ · Member since 2015 · 150 posts · 23 votes
10y
Further clarification - when we were renting the unit to them, they had asked if we can change the carpet as they didn't like the color (the bedrooms have non neutral color carpets). We said the rental is as is.
Rental Property Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2014 · 308 posts · 144 votes
10y
Hi Shefali!
It sounds like they just want new carpet and they are using any excuse they can find to justify it. I'd be more inclined to say no at this point. You could offer to replace the carpet in the room that the man died in as a compromise though. That traps them into their excuse of "hygiene issues". If he died in say the bedroom, then there's no reason to replace the carpet in the living room right?
thanks @Account Closed - the death occurred in the living room (hard wood floors) - and they want the carpet in the bedroom replaced!
Ha! Oh that's too funny! Then this is even more of an obvious attempt to justify them wanting new carpet. I agree with Marcia and check for the communicable diseases portion of things, but if that's not the case, then I'd give them a firm no. If they want out of their lease, then go ahead and let them out without penalty, but WOW the nerve of them asking for new carpet when he died in a different room and on hard wood floors!
Investor · Edwardsville, IL · Member since 2015 · 432 posts · 481 votes
10y
I agree with Marcia Maynard comments 100%. I would add that since they have been high maintenance tenants I would give them the option to break the lease at no charge. Could eliminate a problem tenant that is only going to get worse.
@Account Closed based on the information you have posted you have no obligation to do anything for your tenant, at this point I would not put a second of my time into this issue besides informing them you will let them out of their lease.
You have be much too tolerant with them to this point. I would politely suggest that they are a PITA and that they had best get a grasp on the real world. Just my opinion but I tend to put high maintenance tenants in their place early on in our relationship.
Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
LOL and hang up the phone. I've think I have heard it all from my managers about young parents and babies. Don't let them make you lose money. They are just abusing you. They want new carpet, it's an upgrade... they can pay you for it if they want it that bad, and your picking the product and color, not them. If they want out, they need to lose their security deposit, and pay you a few months rent for breaching the lease.
De Pere, WI · Member since 2016 · 83 posts · 39 votes
10y
Not sure I'd be as strict as Levi, but this is a business you're running! They are completely just trying to see what they can get out of you. Some old guy dies of a heart attack... unless if he has a documented communicable disease that the health department would most definitely be aware of, I cannot see why there is any risk here. New renters. Want everything they had at mommy and daddy's house. Now they're in the real world.
Double check and laws in your state, but I am pretty sure the fact that it was professionally cleaned is probably good enough... also... if there were major health concerns Fannie Mae would have had to remediate it before they were even able to sell (ever see those really ugly rudimentary porches that you can tell were slapped on??? we have a lot of those around us). Fannie Mae has to make it habitable.
If I were you I would offer to allow them to break their lease with some sort of penalty (you'd have to check state laws to see if you can keep their security deposit but that would be my choice) and then allow them to break their lease. It's better to get rid of high maintenance tenants now rather than allow then to continue on with this headache. I would also give them the option to purchase and replace the carpeting themselves BUT you get to choose the carpeting, they get to pay for the carpet and labor. It is YOUR unit, not theirs. If they want their own, they can go and buy a house! Oh wait... that would require responsibility... which it sounds like they are just learning... Best of luck!
Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
There are all sorts of tenants in this world! Some perceive things that aren't real and base their thoughts/fears upon it. Some try to manipulate situations to get what they want. Could be either or both going on here. Understanding the mentality of others can be challenging indeed!
Sounds like you're on track. Stick to facts, present them to the tenant in a friendly manner, and choose to part ways if need be. I often use the line, "The place rents the way it is. If you aren't happy here, perhaps we should talk about a move-out plan." Sounds like she's trying every angle she can think of to get new carpet. I find in these situations, a smile, politeness, presenting a few facts, and speaking few words works best. I also like the line... "I'm not prepared to do that"... when a tenant asks for something that I'm not inclined to do.
Consider how many people die in retirement homes, nursing homes, hospice centers, hospitals, battle fields, and city streets, let alone in private homes. The beat goes on. Dust to dust. In some cultures it just takes opening a window to let a soul exit freely. :)
San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
10y
Completely agree with @Marcia Maynard. We called it the "happy clause." "If you're not happy here, I completely understand, and you're welcome to just give 30 days notice to move out, and I'll even work with you on the 30 day notice, if you find something sooner."
You can do it in a pleasant way. What you're telling them, is "no," and once they realize you actually mean it, they'll either back down or they'll move. After they check Craigslist to see if they can find a better deal LOL.
But, just FYI, if a tenant starts threatening that there are problems and hinting about suing - you should know, that a judge would look favorably on you giving them the option to move if they're not happy. They can never claim that they are stuck. And since clean carpets are not a habitability issue any health inspector is going to ding you for - they'd never win. Whether someone died on the carpet or not. So, don't let them bully you. Just invoke the "happy clause," and thank the stars above if/when they leave.
It's actually pretty hilarious that they are trying to say the carpet must be changed out - in a separate room from where the guy died LOL.
I could tell you some entertaining stories about tenants we invoked the happy clause with - and were so happy to see leave :-)
Investor · Montclair, NJ · Member since 2015 · 150 posts · 23 votes
10y
Thanks all - current update: The tenants have informed us they think this is a 'bio hazard' and would like to accept our option of moving out. They have said they expect their full security deposit back, which we told them they would receive if they leave the unit in the same condition they moved in.
They have now thrown in " the unit was v dirty when we moved in" comment! This unit was sparkling, with brand new appliances and professionally cleaned when they moved in. Thankfully we have pictures and their signatures on documents to prove this.
Irrespective of this I am going to find out what exactly happened regarding the death of the previous owner so that I have all the facts.
Make sure you hire contractors if there are any repairs or excessive cleaning required that will be charged to the tenant.
Do you really want to know the details of the death. It is often best not asking questions you do not want to hear the answer to. I would let it alone.
Thanks all - current update: The tenants have informed us they think this is a 'bio hazard' and would like to accept our option of moving out. They have said they expect their full security deposit back, which we told them they would receive if they leave the unit in the same condition they moved in.
It sounds like this was their plan all along. The death being on hard
wood floors in the living area and their wanting carpet in the bedroom
replaced is quite funny. But I think this is a good break for you
overall. Clean and re-rent, and be more careful who you let in next
time. it is much better to be rid of a high maintenance tenant than to
scrape by from one demand to the next all in order to save a month's
rent. Next up of course is showings. I show units while they are occupied; I know some don't but I do and I rarely have vacancies this way. Your PITA tenants may come up with a bio-hazard argument as to why you should not do that either. It is your property, you have to assert your rights as owner.
Sorry to hear of your issue. Now that they have decided to move out I would remain as positive and professional as possible. i would also get everything going forward in writing.
A letter like the following:
Dear Mr and Mrs Smith,
While we are sorry to see you go and wish that we could have maintained you as a tenant, we will agree to the early termination of lease on your request.
The end date as discussed is _/_/2016.
The unit is expected to be in the same condition as it was received. I have enclosed a copy of the initial walk through documentation for your reference. Our policy is to have security deposits returned within 2 weeks of the final walk through.
We wish you the best and hope you find a unit that is a better fit.
Thank you!
I would avoid all phone conversations going forward because tempers can start to flare. If something does go to court everything that you communicate is professional and calm.
Good luck and hopefully they will find a place that suits them.
Investor · Montclair, NJ · Member since 2015 · 150 posts · 23 votes
10y
All - I had meant to provide the final update to this saga - the tenants made the decision to remain in the unit and have paid their subsequent month rent on time!! They eventually decided to not take us up on the offer for them to move out if they wished:)
@Marcia Maynard, @Account Closed - thank you all for v helpful comments and inputs!