Tenant's friend almost attacked me (move out inspection)

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Tenant's friend almost attacked me (move out inspection)

Christian Bors
Real Estate Agent · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2014 · 529 posts · 217 votes

So last night my tenant and I went through our property move out inspection walk through.  I had bought this property about 6 months ago at auction and inherited this tenant.  Needless to say, the place is destroyed.  Chipped paint, holes in the wall, floors are destroyed, all the bedrooms are painted ridiculous colors and the kitchen needs to be completely remodeled.  I knew about these issues when I purchased the property.  I spoke with my attorney and a friend; they both said because I don't have a move in inspection sheet or proof of what the property looked like, I should give the security deposit back.  That's fine, in the grand scheme of things 600$ doesn't really matter when the remodel job is about 15k. 

Anyways, we walked through and I said the place looks fine except you changed the locks.  There are no other issues I see with the property.  The tenant was very upset and said the previous landlord knew about the changing of the locks.  I had told her I didn't receive a key, and the seller never told me.  The tenant called the previous landlord so prove her case.  Well the previous landlord said, "I didn't know you changed the locks, why did you guys do that?"  Blah blah blah, the tenant made an excuse and said they shouldn't get charge etc....  When we were leaving the property, all of a sudden a large pick up truck comes flying in.  Almost hit my car! A gentlemen (I think he may have been a friend or a relative) got out of the vechile and started screaming saying "where is that f***** a*****."  Luckily, I was already in my car.  At this point I was turning around and already in the middle of the street.  He jumped in front of my car, pounded on the hood.  Then tried to open my door.  I took off and that was it.  Needless to say, I have learned many things from this mistake.  My question is how should I have handled this situation?  Should I have called the cops?  I was worried the tenants were going to smash the house after I left, but it does seem like the simply left after my departure.  Is there anything I should do now?

Thanks and sorry for the long post.

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Harriet Baldwin
Financial Advisor · Elmira, NY · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 67 votes
10y

Stripped of the drama, the tenant changed locks without telling anyone - that does happen.  It's not right, but it's not a bridge I want to die on, either.  I tend to avoid confrontation anyway, but on the tenant's turf with threatening friends and no long-term track record with the tenant, I would have taken a more "oh, new locks? seems wise in this neighborhood.  well, when you turn in your keys, you'll get your deposit back" approach - no need to "call them" on changing the locks.  Usually "after I do a walkthrough" would be part of that speech, but not in this case.

At least in our area, getting the keys back is very helpful from a legal standpoint (clearly shows tenant has given up possession).  I wouldn't have called the seller at all in this case.  If it was an issue I wanted to check with the seller on, an issue that was a potential conflict with a tenant, I would do it after getting back to my desk.  If the issue is something the tenant thinks the seller might be helpful on, I might make the call in front of the tenant.

We've had tenants change locks and then disappear.  Depending on neighborhood, we call a locksmith or just force entry ourselves and change the locks.

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  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    I would not call the police. If you don't have a move in sheet stating condition I would give her entire deposit back. How much are locks? Besides that, I am guessing that by state law (even if not the case why open yourself up to a lawsuit), you need to change the locks when you have a tenant turnover. Get the place in shape, find a good quality tenant, and start making money. Little fights over little dollars are sometimes BIG headaches and not worth it IMO.

    1Reply
  • Christian Bors
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2014 · 529 posts · 217 votes
    10y

    @John Thedford I hear you.  And I'm sure you are right.  Who cares what the cost of locks are when I have to spend 15k to get this place rentable, BUT I hate this tenant. Also, there should be some consequences for threatening me.  Trump would probably keep the whole deposit and say sue me! I know its a headache and definitely not worth any type of battle, but she should be held somewhat accountable.  I mean she really F'd this place up.  Will she file a lawsuit if I keep $50 for changing of the locks?  I doubt it, she's lazy.

    0Reply
  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    @Christian BorsI hear you! My personal opinion has changed a lot over the years. I won't ever argue with a tenant for less than $100 and probably not then. I call it peace of mind. If you go to bed tonight thinking of this issues, ask yourself if you are willing to compromise your happiness for a few bucks! Sure, she might have been really bad news. The good news is: she is GONE! Fighting with her will keep her in your life!

    3Reply
  • Max T.
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Why get into the details with the tenant during the walk through? That is why we have 30 days (state depending) to return security deposit with itemized deductions. Just do the walk through, take notes, accept the keys, and say thank you goodbye. Then send them a letter in the mail with the remaining deposit and itemized deductions.

    3Reply
  • Christian Bors
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2014 · 529 posts · 217 votes
    10y

    @Max T. lesson learned!

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes
    10y

    @Christian Bors I have to disagree with your use of the word "gentleman" in describing your assailant.  :)

    I'm sure it's very upsetting but she's gone so just stay focused on your business.  Good luck with it all. 

    1Reply
  • Bryan Hancock
    Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    This doesn't sound like anything a good concealed weapon wouldn't take care of.  If you're going to manage the properties yourself and deal with C and/or D tenants this is probably something you're going to need to prepare yourself for.  All the more reason to get professional property managers to deal with the trash.  

    0Reply
  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Christian Bors You're letting your emotions get in the way of your business.  Just give her the whole deposit back, and be done with her.  If you keep $50, you might get push back, and you might not.  But, why invite the stress and hassle into your life just to prove a point? Hardly seems worth it, especially since you know you are dealing with unreasonable and potentially violent people.  

    Also, I'm like @Elizabeth Colegrove, and I wouldn't do a walkthrough with a tenant either.  I spend up to two hours checking every single little thing.  I don't need the tenant there watching me do it.  I just send them a statement within 30 days of them moving with what I have deducted and a check enclosed for what's left over.  I have properties in A/B classes, though, so like Elizabeth explained above, I don't really have much in tenant issues.

    @Jay Hinrichs I'm pretty convinced that the long term returns of a better asset come out ahead of the high cash flowing properties.  I do agree that people who have the time and energy to WORK their lower class properties can come out ahead, but it takes a special person to do it well.  I am not that person.

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I know as many rich people as I do poor people.  Believe me both classes have their crazies.  I know rich people that have removed walls and even a swimming pool in rentals without asking permission.

    Do not assume, because someone is rich they will take care of your property.

    In short, money does not keep meth or cocaine from screwing up someone's mind.

    Also do not assume rich people will just write you a check to cover damages. 

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Dawn Brenengen on C class and lower I don't think anyone I know has EVER given a deposit back period... At least those that do this for a living.  tenants know they are not getting it back based on abuse of the home.

    with my A class I am like you I just wait until they are gone figure out the damage they did in MY opoinion then send them the balance due.. I get some bitching but it blows over

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  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Account Closed I mange a handful of C class properties, but I still manage to screen really well, and the owners are ones who will put money into the properties to attract a better tenant than the usual for the area.  I also have a few inherited tenants in these areas that do not do as well.  They definitely have a different mindset than my A tenants.  Yes, the A tenants do still ***** a little about their deposits, but it does blow over.

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  • Bill ThompsonPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Jamaica Plain, MA · Member since 2015 · 60 posts · 88 votes
    10y

    @Christian Bors It's unfortunate you almost got attacked.  There is no excuse for that type of behavior, especially over something minor such as changing locks.

    That being said, I don't understand what you expected to accomplish with the walkthrough given the facts you laid out.  You already had concluded you could not keep her deposit so why be petty about the locks?  All you had to do was accept the keys and keep moving.  

    You introduced stress and conflict into the situation where there didn't need to be any.  Look at it from the tenant's perspective... she was probably thinking you're either being a jerk about a minor item or you're about to gouge her installing a new lock (yes, there are some landlords that will call a locksmith and deduct $300).   I might also add it's possible your former tenant was telling the truth about the locks... it's her word against the former owner... who knows?  Either way there was very little upside to this situation so no need to "go there". 

    I hope you were joking when you said you "hate" your tenant.  This is business.  Never make it personal.  If you're going to invest in C/D areas the last thing you want to do is intentionally push the buttons of people who feel they have nothing to lose. That is asking for trouble and bad karma!

    2Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    10y

    @Christian Bors, I agree you've probably taken this too personally.

    You have no record of the original condition and planned to give her a refund. Why haggle over a lock change? Is it legal to charge her for a lock change? Yes. But isn't that rather petty when you are already facing $15,000 in renovations?

    As I see it, you have two major mistakes here:

    • You shouldn't buy a property with a problem tenant UNLESS the problem is fixed prior to closing. In other words, you should have closed the deal after the tenant moved out, not before. If the seller were forced to deal with her, he may have been able to keep the deposit (or more) and help offset the renovation costs. And he would have someone pounding on his hood while you are safe at home!
    • Do not do a final walk-through inspection with the tenant present! They will try to distract you, argue with you, etc. I wait until the tenant is out and returns the keys to me, then I conduct the walk-through inspection alone at my convenience. If I find anything that the tenant will be charged for, I document it with video/pictures. After cleaning/repairs are done, I send any remaining funds to the tenant with an itemized list of charges. If they want to contest the charges, I usually provide them with a copy of the video/pictures (by email or YouTube link) and a letter detailing how they can submit a written request for review. If I receive a request (hasn't happened yet since I show them my evidence with video/pictures) I would sit down with my staff to see if a mistake was made. If it was, I own up to it. If not, I give them a generic form letter that states we reviewed their case and still stand by our original assessment. After that, they have to take me to court.

    One of the main reasons individuals fail with investment property is the lack of policies and procedures. Now that you've dealt with a problem, figure out a way to ensure it doesn't happen again by taking the advice of others and installing a procedure. Good luck!

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  • Marc M.
    Contractor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2014 · 423 posts · 135 votes
    10y

    Nice to see so many 2A fans here. Hopefully it's easier in your state than it is in mine, it's virtually impossible to get a CCW permit here in MD. Though I will say that if you do go that route, make sure you get the proper training and practice, practice, practice. It's a lot of responsibility, though it's good backup for situations just like this. Had you been walking out of the house instead of being in your car, we might be reading a completely different story.

    0Reply
  • Donna Salmiery
    Pharmacist · The Villages, FL · Member since 2014 · 96 posts · 36 votes
    10y

    As a person who hasn't purchased her first property yet and has no experience, my question to all of you is should you change locks between every tenant anyway? What's to stop old tenants from making a copy of the key and robbing the new tenant? What is standard practice? Thanks.

    0Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Donna Salmiery

    There are locks where the cylinder is removable and a "new" different cylinder can be easily installed in 2 minutes.  There are even locks where you can change the key without removing the cylinder.  We will often have some extra cylinders available and also keep the cylinders removed for future use elsewhere.

    @Christian Bors

    Real estate investing is a learning process.  You need to separate the emotional from the practical.  This is a business.  Personally I would not have charged for the changed lock if given the key.  The behavior of the tenant and friend are uncalled for, but don't get sucked into an argument with any tenant.

    Don't get a gun unless you absolutely know how to handle it and go to a range and continue to practice.  There have been too many incidents where somebody was shot with their own gun, don't let that be you. 

    The lower the grade of property the more work involved in my experience.  Somebody I know has a property that they've owned like 12 years and have never had a tenant stay for the full 12 month lease, and has several confrontations with multiple tenants there.  I'm not in this business for confrontations, owning properties that have to be re-rented more than once a year, and doing the extra work involved for lower grade properties.

    Another investor I know has properties in marginal areas and has had them for many years and successfully manages them, but he goes and personally collects rent every Friday, he's a big guy and doesn't take and crap.  That's more work and aggravation that I want.

    otoh, I want less management, less vacancy, less aggravation, and less time involved.  I've had two 30 year tenants ( plus two 21 year tenants, 15 year, 13, 12, etc long term tenants.)  One of the 30 year tenants told me the only way they're leaving is feet first.  The other 30 year tenant was playing the lottery one day and I asked what he would do if he won?  He said he'd buy the place where he was living and stay in the same place!  I had another 21 year tenant who wouldn't move despite my encouragements with yearly rent increases.  They finally moved when I sold them a bigger place.  They didn't want me to paint or upgrade the place while they were living there, so it had the same carpet, floor covering and paint for the entire 21 years. 

    I hope it wasn't your white car.  Personally I would take the white car to see any tenants, whether a, b, or c.

    3Reply
  • Ken Powell
    Lender · Lusby, MD · Member since 2014 · 60 posts · 38 votes
    10y

    I do not go to any property with my weapon on my hip so everyone can see. I would not go back to the property alone. Call the closest police station and talk to a police, one might accompany you to the property. 

    0Reply
  • Daren H.
    Real Estate Investor · Desoto, TX · Member since 2013 · 560 posts · 528 votes
    10y

    There are some who view a gun as the answer. Any business that requires me to carry a gun or be an intimidating presence to my client is probably not one I am interested in. More bad sh*t happens in bad areas than good areas in my opinion. If that is not true, there would be no such thing as a good area. I stay away from the bad areas and let the chips fall where they may from there. Although there are extreme cases, the majority of tenants are not shooting Landlords and PMs. We love to sell fear in America.

    1Reply
  • Sarnen Steinbarth
    Commercial Real Estate Broker · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2015 · 308 posts · 151 votes
    10y

    Great tips by @Nathan Gesner.  Much has already been said; make sure to screen tenants, learn and move on.

    0Reply
  • Christian Bors
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2014 · 529 posts · 217 votes
    10y

    @Bill ThompsonYou're right. This was my first tenant move out. Wasn't sure what I was thinking. Based on the overwhelming response, I should have just taken the keys and walked through the property at a later date. Especially since I am giving back the security deposit, so whats the point. Thanks for the input.

    @Nathan Gesner  This particular tenant has been in the property for the past 7 years.  While she was a headache, she did pay her rent (which was easily $200 below market rent). She could have been much worse.  The issues typically rose when I was trying to replace or fix items in the her apartment.  For example, the bathroom didn't have an exhaust fan.  The tenant never opened the window which caused mold to form on the ceiling.  Anyways, I replaced the window and installed a fan the first couple of weeks I owned the property.  It took a couple of weeks because she uncooperative with letting us in to make the repairs.  That was the typical issue we had with her.  There were two other incidents similar to the one mentioned that happened later at the property.  

    As far as procedures go, I certainly learned what to do when a tenant moves out.  Won't make this mistake again!

    0Reply
  • Christian Bors
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2014 · 529 posts · 217 votes
    10y

    @David Krulac Yeah, I am chalking this up as a learning a experience.  I was splitting hairs.  No point in prolonging any interaction with her.  Give back the deposit and move on.  I've learned from this mistake.  The white car does not visit any properties.  I don't want the tenants to form any incorrect opinions.  Also, I took your advice and changed the lock to a dead bolt so I won't have to worry about any tenants locking themselves out :)

    0Reply
  • Chris K.Pro Member
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
    10y

    What was the point of doing a walkthru if you were giving the deposit back anyway?

    0Reply
  • Sean Kremer
    Real Estate Investor · Milford, NE · Member since 2011 · 201 posts · 140 votes
    10y

    I think I would have held the whole deposit back, (only because of the way they acted towards me) and dared them to sue me.....If I got a letter from an attorney telling me to pay or else, I would have my attorney....(who is a friend), send numerous letters back and forth so I could run up their attorney bill, then pay up. I can't stand being pushed around, and will usually push back, but that's my nature .  Also I've found pepper spray to work alright and I don't have to go to jail after I pull the trigger on pepper spray....That being said, I've also returned deposits to people that may not deserve it back, but they were nice to me and made my life as easy as they could.....I like to reward that behavior too.  I hate hassles, but haven't totally gotten over my enjoyment of passive aggressive revenge either.   If you're a dick to me, expect the same back from me. Just be nice...:)

    This approach is not for everyone I assume....

    2Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    10y

    Emotions have no place in business , just because they pissed you off , you want to piss them off , then EVERYBODY is pissed off .  It just keeps getting worse .   As far as the locks being changed , I have heard of that trick , just so the tenant can be there for a walk thru ,or to gain time to move out . A friend of mine has 50 plus units in C neighborhoods . When this happens to him , he breaks a key off in the lock so when the ex tenant  shows up with the key and the lock doesnt work he says he will get his locksmith out there this week .  The  ex tennant is upset , but he has avoided having the tenant bothering him while doing a move out inspection .  He then drills the lock and does his thing .

    1Reply
  • Harriet Baldwin
    Financial Advisor · Elmira, NY · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 67 votes
    10y

    @Christian Bors to clarify, I wouldn't follow up in any way on the different keys.  If I am getting those keys, I have everything I need.  Even if it was in violation of the lease for the tenant to change the locks, if I get the keys, no harm/no foul in my view.

    If I am not getting the keys, that probably means the keys are the least of my worries - legally or condition-wise.

    Exception: if I weren't already evicting (or the tenant wasn't already vacating), and if the lease wasn't near the end, and if the tenant was troublesome but paid on time, then I *might* use the change of locks as an excuse to terminate the lease (if the lease allowed me to do so) and then serve the tenant with a 30-day notice.  But I'm guessing my lawyer would say that if changing the locks were the only violation, that I could be on thin ice if the tenant supplied keys and fought the lease termination in court... [not legal advice]

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