How would you handle this attorney?

Question

I contacted an attorney a little over a month ago to draw up a promissory note and a mortgage that I could use for a private money loan between my lender and I.

Initially, he requested a $400 retainer to begin work on the documents and for legal advice. I responded that I simply needed two documents and no legal advice so he lowered the amount to $375 for the note and mortgage.

I notified him of the address and loan amount to finalize the documents when I got a property under contract. He emailed me these documents in PDF form. I had to back out of the deal due to structural issues and told him that. I asked that he email me the docs in a way so that I can edit them and he replied that he would rather edit them since his name is attached to them.

Today, I get a e-mail from him saying the additional charges will be $30-$60 to edit and revise the documents. So $30-$60 to change the address and the loan amount.

How would you reply back? Do I own the documents? I feel that I paid $375 for two documents and they are now mine to do what I want with, including using them over and over again for additional properties.

Wayne Brooks · Answer

Okay, so just retype/convert them to a word doc.

Account Closed · Answer

What does your contract with the lawyer say?  Anything about using a document he prepared?

How much does he get paid per hour?  When you say he "just" created a document, how long did it take for him to do that?

I'm not sure you got ripped off here.  If he charges $400/hour and it took him an hour, you got what he's worth.

You might want to look for a cheaper attorney.  Or get a book with forms in it.  For instance, I used the Nolo Press Californian landlord book, which includes contracts prepared by CA lawyers.  Book cost about $35 :-)

Jeff S. · Answer

In fact, you might have "rented" them, David.

I know this will horrify Mark Gallagher, above, but our attorney charges over $750 to prepare loan docs for a single deal. These are copyrighted by him on every page and cannot be reused without a copyright infringement (i.e. stealing). Would or does he check? I have no idea.

He also charges thousands of dollars for a complete set of customized loan documents that he sells to lenders for their unlimited use.  These typically reflect each lender's specific terms.  Pretty common for a specialized lending attorney.

You should clarify with your attorney what you are getting and who owns the IP -- something you probably should have done up front and whenever you ask an attorney for documents like this, that are often intended to be reused.

I'll never say you get what you pay for, but frankly, I wouldn't sweat $30 to $60.  Assuming they are well done, $375 for a set of well-crafted reusable loan documents could be the bargain of the century.  I'll guess however, that these are canned, fill-in-the-blank templates he obtains by subscription.  If your attorney is a run of the mill real estate type who does loans today, leases tomorrow, and perhaps closings the day after, then your lender (who I assume is a friend or family?) might not have the protection they need.

Alternately, many title companies will provide a note and mortgage or deed-of-trust for free.  They tend to be very generic and could offer little protection. Some I've seen are truly awful. Alternately, Fannie Mae has many state specific loan documents on their web site you can simply download.

All really just a crapshoot, especially if you don't know what you're looking at or how to originate a loan, but you might have done well if an experienced mortgage broker recommended your attorney to you.

Sam Leon · Answer

The way I see it, you paid for him to create the content of that document, not the actual document itself.

I would just open the document in your PDF reader, hilite the whole document and copy it into Word, do your own editing, formatting, then do a Save As PDF again.

If you want to include fillable fields, like names, addresses, dates, then you will need the full version of Adobe, or any of the third party editor.  I use a product called PDFill, which I think I paid $19.95 for several years ago.  There are many PDF editing tools out there.

David Mitro · Answer

Is there a way to edit a PDF with Adobe Reader or do you have to upgrade to another Adobe product?

David Mitro · Answer

@Mark Gallagher Thanks!

You live and you learn. I should have moved on to the next guy as soon as he tried to get me to pay a $400 retainer for legal services that I didn't ask for, but he came referred by a mortgage broker that I trust.

Mark Gallagher · Answer

@David Mitro

OK that's what I thought you would say. Sure that's his name on it, but it's not "in" the document. White it out. That's no different than me pulling a recorded note and mortgage from the courthouse and editing it to use it for my own use, which you could have done for free.

Side note, you paid way too much. Don't use that attorney next time. I have a good one, not sure if he'll do lower Bucks, but if you need someone in the future feel free to message me.

David Mitro · Answer

@Mark Gallagher

It says, "Prepared by and return to:" with his name UPI no. etc in the top left corner of the mortgage.

I wasn't sure if he would give me a difficult time by saying that I am not authorized to use the documents for different properties.

Mark Gallagher · Answer

@David Mitro

Perhaps I'm glaring over something, but where would his name be on those documents?

Just edit them how you see fit. If his name is on there, edit/remove it. I don't see how there's a problem doing that.

How would you handle this attorney?

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