SDIRA or Cash Out My 401(k) – Help Me Decide (long post!)

SDIRA or Cash Out My 401(k) – Help Me Decide (long post!)

Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 101 posts · 56 votes

Here’s my dilemma. I have ~$150k in an employer 401(k). My job ends at the end of February. After that my and my husband’s plan is to invest in multifamily rental properties, reinvesting all of the profits as we go into buying more property. Our goal is to create sufficient cash flow for retirement. We’d like to retire in 10 years (or less), but at the outside 20 years (I’m 34 now, my husband is 32).

Note: We have other retirement funds – my husband has a 401(k) that will give us comfortable income once he's 59 ½. Plus I'll have a pension from the job that's ending once I'm 55. Plus Social Security (though when I do our retirement calculations I pretend like that's not gonna happen….because you know….it probably won't). So in any event we will have an acceptable retirement at a decent age in any case. Anything we do with my 401(k) is icing. Plus we may still start a Roth IRA for one or both of us regardless of what we do with my 401(k) money.

Another note: We will have ~$25k of our own savings to put toward investing, and we could pull about ~$110k in equity out of our house for investing (though I'd rather not do that since the 401(k) money could be used as described below and the HELOC payment would require drawing cash flow off the rental property…which could be a problem if there ever isn't any or enough).

At any rate, here are the options I’m considering with my 401(k) money and the pros and cons as I see them (there are probably more, these are just off the top of my head):

Plan A – Roll the money into a self-directed traditional IRA.

Pros:

  • We get access to the full $150k.
  • We can pretty much still operate as planned, since we don’t plan to draw off any of the income until retirement anyway.

Cons:

  • Getting loans to the IRA entity would be difficult as there are few lenders that do this. Terms are often less favorable than we could get personally. Including…
  • A huge down payment (30-50%) is required. We’d likely have a higher going in price point if we simply cashed out and used the resultant ~$100k on a traditional 20% down loan.
  • We can’t start drawing until 59 ½ (25 years from now), so this doesn’t really achieve our early retirement goals.
  • Direct investing in rental property through an IRA is fraught with risk. It seems the IRS itself isn't even always sure of what constitutes a prohibited transaction until they decide something is. Even reputable businesses that help with this kind of investing now could end up unintentionally steering you wrong, blowing the whole IRA out, leaving the property in limbo and all sort of other legal issues.
  • Management and other fees of the self-directed IRA, the IRA entity, etc.
  • Slower access to funds – everything has to get vetted thoroughly before any money can move.
  • A traditional IRA is simply tax-deferred – so not paying taxes now on $150k means paying taxes later on (hopefully) a lot more money. This is the part I like the least.

Plan B – Roll the money into a self-directed Roth IRA.

Pros

  • We get access to most of the money (less taxes, but no penalties).
  • Same as above, we can still operate as planned.
  • No taxes on the income once it’s drawn out.

Cons

  • Same as the first six above.

Plan C – Take disbursement of the money and pay the associated taxes and penalties.

Pros

  • I believe this would be the most flexible option. No complicated business structuring, slow access to money, high fees, etc.
  • It would be easier to use tools like seller financing, HELOCs on rental properties, partnering, etc. to snowball assets.
  • It would allow us to retire when we want/are able to, without the 59 ½ age restriction.

Cons

  • Taxes and penalties, likely leaving only ~$100k of the original $150k.

So, my esteemed BP peeps…what do you think? Which option should I choose and why? Am I missing any pros or cons? Are there other options I should be considering (I know they exist, but didn’t include them as I see these as my primary options….but if you have a good argument for another option I’m open to it!).

In any case, thanks for reading!

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Dawn AnastasiPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
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@Account Closed  personally I would not want to lose 1/3 of my money in the 401k at the get-go.  How long will it take you to recoup that $50k?

How about a Plan D?  Have you looked into Solo 401k plans?

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  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Account Closed  personally I would not want to lose 1/3 of my money in the 401k at the get-go.  How long will it take you to recoup that $50k?

    How about a Plan D?  Have you looked into Solo 401k plans?

  • Real Estate Broker · North Richland Hills, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 607 votes
    11y

    i'm in a similar situation, and just haven't been able to make self-directed options work for my needs. To the cons I'd add that if you invest in any entity that borrows money (like an LLC), your investment returns are subject to UBIT. You also can't benefit in any way from the investment, whether it be living in it, drawing off any cash flows from the IRA, etc. When you withdraw Trad. IRA funds, you'll be paying ordinary income tax rates, not cap gains.

    I'm using a phased approach to investment funding.    First, I tapped all my available after-tax (i.e. non-retirement) funds.

    Next, I obtained a HELOC. It's interest-only for 10 years w/ a 3.48% rate, and the interest expense is tax deductible. I'm in the process of funding 2 MF LLC's w/ source, they should close over the next 2 months.

    After that, I'll need to dip into retirement funds. I"m going to initiate a 72T distribution for my wife's and my trad IRA, which will provide ~4% of the balance annually w/ no penalties, just taxes. I've been waiting until Jan. to initiate this so I'll have an extra year to pay the taxes. An alternative approach I've considered is to convert trad IRA funds to Roth up to whatever it would take to max out my tax bracket, then wait 5 years to withdraw the full amount - I'd have to do it on a laddered approach, otherwise the tax bill would kill me.

    I"m also going to withdraw the prior contributions (not gains) to our Roth IRA's, which will be tax-free. I'll reinvest distributions and liquidity events, which along w/ 72t distributions should fund at least 1 MF investment per year after 2015, when I expect to add 3 or 4 to my portfolio.

  • Brian EastmanPro Member
    Self Directed IRA & 401k Advisor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    @Account Closed noted, the potential of a Solo 401k is something you may wish to look into if you will have some form of qualifying self employment. The conversion to Roth can be done within the plan on an incremental basis - thus reducing the tax impact in any given year. A 401k is also not subject to UDFI taxation on leveraged investments as an IRA (Tradional or Roth) would be.

  • Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 101 posts · 56 votes
    11y

    @Dawn Anastasi that's a very good point, and I agree, I'd rather not lose money.  I should have added that we are not looking for the "insanely rich" path so much as we are the "retire as soon as reasonably possible on a comfortable income" path.  Not that that necessarily means sacrificing $50k now, but to me the time to recoup the $50k is secondary to which overall strategy will accomplish our goals.  But at the same time if we only add five years to our retirement at a significant reduction in monthly income, that's just silly.  I think what I really need is to run numbers on each scenario, which I intend to talk to my CPA about in January.  And I have considered the Solo 401(k), but unfortunately don't qualify.

    @Chris Soignier thanks for sharing! You've got us revisiting the HELOC thing (we ended up talking about it for most of the afternoon actually), so we may end up pursuing that based on how the numbers shake out. Mostly your creative approach helped remind us to understand our desires and fears and separate those from the numbers and logic. Thank you!

    @Brian Eastman that calculator is really helpful, thank you very much!  And good to know that SDIRAs are not as scary as people make them out to be - you're right, I think they do that to get you to play it "safe" in paper assets.  As above, we are definitely trying to keep our fears from clouding our logic on this one.

    Thanks again, all, this has helped us continue the discussion and keep open to new ways of approaching our plans.  Much appreciated!

  • Lender · Hot Springs Village, AR · Member since 2014 · 274 posts · 92 votes
    11y

    Rather than contribute to a solution I would like to ask a question. I have used a SDIRA for years in Real Estate and enjoyed major tax savings. However, using this vehicle for buying rentals that are self-managed is a royal pain. Very simple needs must be kept at arm's length which means having a property manager whether needed or not. I am reading about check book IRA's and am seriously considering this. Has anyone used this method and if so, what are the pros and cons?

  • Involved In Real Estate · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 8 votes
    11y

    To me, I will never touch a IRA with a 10ft. pole (SDIRA). It is so inferior to the solo 401k that for the self-employed there is no debate. I am unsure why you say that you can't qualify @Melanie Smith. Granted, for 2014 no because you are still at your job. HOWEVER, it sounds like next year in Feb. that will be over and you shall move over into the self employed world. Once that happens you certainly can! It would not be that hard to park your money in a retirement vehicle until that happens. If you and your husband are truly doing this biz together you can borrow up to $100,000 or 50% of your invested income for ANY USE (normally 1/2 that for individuals). As someone else stated you will not be subject to the UDIF like the IRA or SEP. You have other options to access capital, and leverage your retirement to access more. Using OPM (other peoples money) to invest in real estate while keeping your own income in tax advantage accounts is a pretty solid investing strategy. Oh and by the way you can have a sub-roth account in your 401k too without the usual income requirements. Now, WITH all that said you want to use your rental income for retirement in hopefully 10 years? How you suppose to do that with having your rentals in a retirement plan? I think if that is your goal then this all kinda becomes a mute point. I personally have a solo 401k (or in my mind any retirement account) 1st for tax planning: 2nd because savings account interest rates suck so I need something that will get my higher returns but still allow me to borrow from my 401k, 3rd give me some options for investing in non-traditional assets like real estate = just plain ole flexibility. Bottom line? I think everyone should have a retirement plan even if they are primarily real estate investors, but to me if you are trying to use that rental income for personal use than it does not make sense to go through your 401k. 

  • Spring Valley, NY · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 6 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Rather than contribute to a solution I would like to ask a question. I have used a SDIRA for years in Real Estate and enjoyed major tax savings. However, using this vehicle for buying rentals that are self-managed is a royal pain. Very simple needs must be kept at arm's length which means having a property manager whether needed or not. I am reading about check book IRA's and am seriously considering this. Has anyone used this method and if so, what are the pros and cons?

     When using it to invest in real estate, it is far superior to the custodial version. There are two main reasons: real time investing not hidden/recurrent fees (e.g. no transaction fees, no asset-based fees). 

    If you see a deal, you just write out a check and acquire the property. You need a repair, take out of your checkbook (or setup a debit-card account at your local Home Depot). Need to pay a utility bill or the gardner, just take out your checkbook. 

    If you are investing in an empty lot and holding onto it for year, the custodial method would probably be better. 

    The main distinguishing point is how often you will need to write a check. The more you need to, the better the checkbook control method is. The better in terms of ease and cost. 

  • Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2014 · 42 posts · 11 votes
    11y

    Melanie,

    If you believe real estate is the way to go for investing, you should consider purchasing properties in your IRA if you convert your 401K to either Roth or Traditional IRA. Either way, you will not be able to use that money until you reach the magic age, but I see no reason not to invest in multiple items other than Mutual funds.

    My wife and I just converted our IRA's to Self Directed. She had a 401K that she converted to a Traditional IRA; mine has always been a Roth. We just purchased a Duplex in our SDIRA and so far I am pretty happy with the transaction that is seeing a return of 12%. We bought it 50/50 with each of our IRAs because 100% of the expenses of the property have to come out of your IRA--we can't co-mingle personal funds or we could be subject to UBIT. We have $80K property that if we had expenses come up that had to be paid, our IRAs would split the expense. We also invest in notes and mutual funds within the IRA money.

    Basically here is how it works: rather than invest in a mutual fund, the IRA purchases and owns a property. The custodian (bank) that holds your IRA sends a check to closing for the property and you never touch the funds. The management company handling the property submits all bills or rental income directly to the IRA Custodian accounts and we never touch the retirement funding. We pay an annual fee for the IRA custodian and all little transactions under the account are included for the management of that property.

    You can ask me any questions you like if you would like me to clarify. There are many other ways that you can get creative with the funds. You can write notes to other investors with those funds and let your IRA earn that way; there are many firms out there that sell notes. You can invest in a fellow investor's deal that they might not be able to fully fund on their own, but you could provide funding from your IRA and provide a note. That investor would make cash to use now and your retirement would grow. You could then borrow from that same investor out of their retirement to fund a deal you are working and you could earn income, while their retirement earns for them.

    I am weighing the options of converting our other traditional account to Roth and I think we are going to.  The penalty is steep, but which is worse:  Paying $50k of your $150k now or $500K of your $1.5 million in 30 Years?  Keep in mind that once you exceed a certain income level (I believe it is $180K?) you can no longer invest in a Roth.  I like having the Roth now because in a few years I know I will exceed that limit and no longer be able to contribute.

    All sorts of ways to use your IRA.

  • Solo 401k Expert · Anaheim Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 18k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    11y

    This information is incorrect, Home Depot does not offer debit card, but they do offer consumer credit card. However, obtaining credit card will require personal guarantee which is not allowed with retirement accounts. Only non-recourse financing must be utilized - and no Home Depot will ever do that. 

  • Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2014 · 42 posts · 11 votes
    11y

    @Jeff Astor 

    We just use Custodial accounts right now because we don't have many expenses to write out checks for, the management company takes care of that directly with the custodian.  I would imagine the checkbook style account would also be more scrutinized for an audit risk, what are your thoughts regarding that?

  • Brian EastmanPro Member
    Self Directed IRA & 401k Advisor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    @Andrew Grieb 

    The level of IRS scrutiny is likely equal for a custodial self directed IRA vs a Checkbook IRA (wherein the LLC itself is held by a custodial IRA). At the reporting layer, which is the IRA itself, they are the same.

    One of the key misunderstandings in the self directed realm is that "the custodian has your back" from a compliance standpoint.  Custodians are purely processors and if you give them the paperwork to execute a transaction and the paperwork is "complete" they will process regardless of the potential of a prohibited transaction.  Sure, if you tried to issue a check to yourself, they would probably stop and ask questions, but they are prohibited by rule from providing tax or legal guidance and when you sign an investment authorization form, you note that you are fully responsible for the tax implications of your actions.

    If you work with a quality provider of a checkbook plan (as opposed to what might be referred to as a document provider), you should have access to expert guidance. So, in reality you are less likely to get in trouble with a checkbook plan - so long as you are willing to stop and ask questions if you are unsure.  At the end of the day, you are still solely responsible for compliance with the rules, but with an expert on your team, that should be easy to do.

  • Spring Valley, NY · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    Not at all, Andrew. There is a lot of misinformation out there, much of it put out there from the custodial companies. In point of fact, an IRA-LLC checkbook plan written by reputable ERISA attorneys and offered by a reputable company will not unto itself raise a red flag for an audit. Indeed, it's less of a risk because some of the leading custodial companies have been the target of class action lawsuits for things like misappropriation of funds (something not possible in a checkbook model). See this Wall Street Journal article, for instance: http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB100014240527023...

  • Spring Valley, NY · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 6 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Dmitriy Fomichenko:

    This information is incorrect, Home Depot does not offer debit card, but they do offer consumer credit card. However, obtaining credit card will require personal guarantee which is not allowed with retirement accounts. Only non-recourse financing must be utilized - and no Home Depot will ever do that. 

    Dmitriy, apparently you misunderstood; maybe I was unclear. But I did not see you need a Home Depot debit card. You just need a debit card. I know people using their debit card at Home Depot. 

  • Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 101 posts · 56 votes
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    @Christopher Block  thanks for the input! I didn’t think I qualified, but I can always check again. I agree with you and @Dawn Anastasi they’re a much better way to go!

    @Jeff Astor  @Brian Eastman if I go the IRA route, I would likely go the checkbook IRA route, so thanks for the additional info on those!

  • Spring Valley, NY · Member since 2014 · 34 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    My pleasure, Melanie. All the best. 

  • Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2014 · 42 posts · 11 votes
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    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Christopher Block  thanks for the input! I didn’t think I qualified, but I can always check again. I agree with you and @Dawn Anastasi they’re a much better way to go!

    @Jeff Astor  @Brian Eastman if I go the IRA route, I would likely go the checkbook IRA route, so thanks for the additional info on those!

    Another thing to consider about the Traditional vs Roth for right now, is what kind of return you expect and what taxes you will pay now vs later. My goal is to get our accounts to a value of at least 1 million at retirement. If I can maintain a 12% ROI on my investments, I can maintain a $120K tax free income on each account without depleting the $1 million tax free nest egg--but if I needed to I could sell off those investments and cash out tax free. Good luck with your decision and let us know what you decide. I think it is always nice to learn more.

  • Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 101 posts · 56 votes
    11y

    @Andrew Grieb thanks! I think I'm going to pay some professionals to help me talk out the assumptions and run numbers, but this has all helped me put a finer point on what to ask. So many considerations! I'll let y'all know where I land. Thanks again everyone for the great discussion!

  • Investor · Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 101 posts · 56 votes
    11y

    Update: we decided to roll into a SDIRA but for passive investments. We're going to tap the equity in our home to do rental properties. Reasoning: we're looking into rental properties for cash flow for (very) early retirement, which just wouldn't be an option with any established retirement plan. But we still don't want to lose the momentum my 401k has, so we'll just use a SDIRA to balance out investment mix overall.  Thanks everyone for the excellent feedback - you all helped shape our decision!

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