I started the remodel process with a GC of the property I own and the first thing they did was to measure the property lot.
It turned out that the county record has 6-ft less width for the lot than the actual length that measures on ground. So, they asked me to do the survey. I did my little research on the county website and I used their satellite based parcel map which allows to measure each lot. It turns out that the satellite parcel map measures what's on the ground. So, I got a bit curious to find out why the county records are incorrect. So, I measured all 4 lots width on my street and it turns out that two houses away neighbor has 6-ft less physical width than what the county records show. Note that we don't share any walls, there are two properties in between us and we both are the corner lots on the street.
So I called up the county and they insist that the county records are correct and they can only be changed with a new survey.
What are my options here? Could the county or neighbor claim a piece of my land after the survey? Or has anyone dealt with this kind of situation where county records were incorrect and you were able to correct it. I have lived here for 6 years and all neighbors have proper fencing so there's no dispute otherwise. The two neighbors in between measures exactly same as their county records. Also, the county surveyor office mentioned that they have these records since the builder built the original buildings in 1979.
I'm also attaching the county parcel record that shows our property measurements.
I agree that GIS does not trump deed record. But the problem seems to be when the original housing community was built. Even if we have to do a survey, the 6ft will go to the 2 neighbors away from me and they all of the properties will need to change the lot lines since the 2 lots between us don't gain/loose anything. And we will need to make every one resurvey their properties too, which seems unlikely.
I feel that i probably should cancel my addition plans since with the 6ft gone from my lot, I don't even know if my existing structure has the required set backs. It probably would be wise to sell the property. We really needed to do the addition for growing family needs. But with the situation above it would take months if not more to finish the legalities. Thoughts?
No one is going to be changing their lot lines…. Just get a survey of Your lot….then you’ll know what’s what, and how to proceed, or not. Until then, it’s just guessing.
A "measure" doesn't equate to a survey. The survey is the only true measure of the boundaries. You don't have a survey from your purchase? Online GIS records can be off. But you would expect that a subdivision plat to have been digitized correctly. Are you certain you have 6 more feet? If you're going by a fence line, it's possible that the former owner built it on an easement or common land and no one complained. As far as "taking it", it's possible that the 6' wasn't yours to begin with. If you're wanting to change the footprint of the building, a survey would be needed for permitting in any locale I've ever encountered.
Thanks Glenna for you reply. No in CA, we don't require to have a survey at the time of purchase, so most transactions don't do surveys.
>> Online GIS records can be off. But you would expect that a subdivision plat to have been digitized correctly. Are you certain you have 6 more feet?
Yes, that's what I assumed. My architect did measure the width and it's 59' ob the ground from fence to fence, but the parcel map shows 53'. I do believe that the GIS is correct and the discrepancy is while recording whoever surveyed it at the first place.
I called up County surveyor's office and they want me to re-survey and if any dispute comes up then they want me to resolve with the neighbors. In this case, I can't really give 6ft of width from my lot to the neighbor that's 3-house away without also modifying the boundaries of 2 neighbors in between. I'm really concerned if I should even survey the property, but that seems to be the only solution it seems.
I started the remodel process with a GC of the property I own and the first thing they did was to measure the property lot.
t turned out that the county record has 6-ft less width for the lot than the actual length that measures on ground. So, they asked me to do the survey. I did my little research on the county website and I used their satellite based parcel map which allows to measure each lot. It turns out that the satellite parcel map measures what's on the ground. So, I got a bit curious to find out why the county records are incorrect. So, I measured all 4 lots width on my street and it turns out that two houses away neighbor has 6-ft less physical width than what the county records show. Note that we don't share any walls, there are two properties in between us and we both are the corner lots on the street.
So I called up the county and they insist that the county records are correct and they can only be changed with a new survey.
What are my options here? Could the county or neighbor claim a piece of my land after the survey? Or has anyone dealt with this kind of situation where county records were incorrect and you were able to correct it. I have lived here for 6 years and all neighbors have proper fencing so there's no dispute otherwise. The two neighbors in between measures exactly same as their county records. Also, the county surveyor office mentioned that they have these records since the builder built the original buildings in 1979.
As Glenna stated, the only way to truly know, is to have a survey. I am also in CA and while it is true, a survey is not usually needed or done at the time of purchase in urban/suburban areas, they may be required for certain building/additions, etc. So, you could check with your building dept and see if they will require a survey for the remodel work you are doing. If they are not requiring it, then you have the option of not doing one. If they are requiring one or you want to do one anyway, then you may find out the buildings or fences (yours and/or the neighbors) may have been built on the wrong lot boundaries. Although, I suppose it is possible, I, personally am not aware of any county parcel maps that have been incorrect, unless they hadn't been updated from changes. I worked at a local assessor's office many years ago. It may just be that someone built a fence or many fences on the wrong boundary lines. Remember, a fence does not constitute a legal parcel boundary.
So, you may find out you have been enjoying the use of 6 feet of your Neighbor's land. And if that is the case, you have a few options. But, I would find a real estate attorney experienced with lot line disputes and consult with them. You may want to even consult an attorney now, prior to doing a survey, in case you would need to disclose the survey findings, if you do one.
But, if you have been using the neighbor's land for the 6 years you have been there, you may still have options. You may be able to get a prescriptive easement, which can give you the right to use that land permanently. You won't own that part, but your use of it would not change, so, effectively, you would gain the legal right to use the land you have already been using, but just found out wasn't legally yours to use in the first place (mind twister).
But, depending on where they built the house, in relation to your legal parcel, it may affect any potential additions or building you are planning on doing. So, if you are planning on building and doing any additions, you may want to do a survey, even if you aren't required to, just to make sure you aren't inadvertently building into your setbacks or on your neighbor's legal lot. Because if you do, you may be required to remove any building you do, which would cause an avoidable problem.
@Allen Bo You’re not getting it....the 53’ on the plat maps is correct and is what you bought..period. You bought “lot number 5”, you didn’t buy “from the side street to wherever the neighbor’s fence is”. If you are doing an addition on that side of the house, the set back requirement will be measured from the legal lot line, not the fence. If you’re not doing an addition, it doesn’t matter.
Also, yes, I have seen a county GIS be wrong. Bought a lot in Gulf County, FL, in 2015. GIS said it was 50' wide. Seller sold it as 50'. Survey showed it was 40' wide. I bought with cash so no survey was involved and I chose to not get one as a condition of the sale. There were no grounds whatsoever to dispute it so I adjusted my house plans to fit. This was in a beach area and it ended up just a few square inches to spare on the lot coverage. I submitted the updated copy to the county and they subsequently adjusted the county records. County GIS systems do not trump legal descriptions on deeds.
I agree that GIS does not trump deed record. But the problem seems to be when the original housing community was built. Even if we have to do a survey, the 6ft will go to the 2 neighbors away from me and they all of the properties will need to change the lot lines since the 2 lots between us don't gain/loose anything. And we will need to make every one resurvey their properties too, which seems unlikely.
I feel that i probably should cancel my addition plans since with the 6ft gone from my lot, I don't even know if my existing structure has the required set backs. It probably would be wise to sell the property. We really needed to do the addition for growing family needs. But with the situation above it would take months if not more to finish the legalities. Thoughts?
I agree that GIS does not trump deed record. But the problem seems to be when the original housing community was built. Even if we have to do a survey, the 6ft will go to the 2 neighbors away from me and they all of the properties will need to change the lot lines since the 2 lots between us don't gain/loose anything. And we will need to make every one resurvey their properties too, which seems unlikely.
I feel that i probably should cancel my addition plans since with the 6ft gone from my lot, I don't even know if my existing structure has the required set backs. It probably would be wise to sell the property. We really needed to do the addition for growing family needs. But with the situation above it would take months if not more to finish the legalities. Thoughts?
No one is going to be changing their lot lines…. Just get a survey of Your lot….then you’ll know what’s what, and how to proceed, or not. Until then, it’s just guessing.
I agree that GIS does not trump deed record. But the problem seems to be when the original housing community was built. Even if we have to do a survey, the 6ft will go to the 2 neighbors away from me and they all of the properties will need to change the lot lines since the 2 lots between us don't gain/loose anything. And we will need to make every one resurvey their properties too, which seems unlikely.
I feel that i probably should cancel my addition plans since with the 6ft gone from my lot, I don't even know if my existing structure has the required set backs. It probably would be wise to sell the property. We really needed to do the addition for growing family needs. But with the situation above it would take months if not more to finish the legalities. Thoughts?
No one is going to be changing their lot lines…. Just get a survey of Your lot….then you’ll know what’s what, and how to proceed, or not. Until then, it’s just guessing.
I think that's a good point. Does anyone know if surveyors report to the county or it's up to us to allow them to report?
I agree that GIS does not trump deed record. But the problem seems to be when the original housing community was built. Even if we have to do a survey, the 6ft will go to the 2 neighbors away from me and they all of the properties will need to change the lot lines since the 2 lots between us don't gain/loose anything. And we will need to make every one resurvey their properties too, which seems unlikely.
I feel that i probably should cancel my addition plans since with the 6ft gone from my lot, I don't even know if my existing structure has the required set backs. It probably would be wise to sell the property. We really needed to do the addition for growing family needs. But with the situation above it would take months if not more to finish the legalities. Thoughts?
No one is going to be changing their lot lines…. Just get a survey of Your lot….then you’ll know what’s what, and how to proceed, or not. Until then, it’s just guessing.
I think that's a good point. Does anyone know if surveyors report to the county or it's up to us to allow them to report?
The surveyor simply gives the survey, which will identify any easements you don’t know about, to the person who orders and pays them for it.
@Wayne Brooks in some states surveys are public record and are automatically recorded. Not sure which ones or how many, but that’s how it is here. @Allen Bo
Even walking could be hard now. It’s a defect and you know it. You could approach planning and have them mediate a solution by having everyone involved register the appropriate encroachments.
@Wayne Brooks in some states surveys are public record and are automatically recorded. Not sure which ones or how many, but that’s how it is here. @Allen Bo
@Allen Bo I would up in your jurisdiction to see if there are any laws on adverse possession that might help you claim the extra 6' legally.
Honestly, I would consult a RE laywer in your area that deals with this. It may be too much of a headache for 6'.
What happens if you now know your property line is moved back 6' and any structure were not code complaint when it was built and the city issues a fine to you, or worse an order to move the building or remove it. Or your neighbor wants you to move the fence off their property that they just found out is theirs.
@Allen Bo do you know where the markers/survey pins are? I would get a survey and try to get your addition approved. Drop discussion of the lot with 6 ft less. You don't have to know where the 6 feet came from. If your survey and you neighbors survey is right you are good. They made an error. Let the other corner fix his issue.
@Allen Bo do you know where the markers/survey pins are? I would get a survey and try to get your addition approved. Drop discussion of the lot with 6 ft less. You don't have to know where the 6 feet came from. If your survey and you neighbors survey is right you are good. They made an error. Let the other corner fix his issue.
Actually, this is the solution I'm going with after talking to my GC today. He asked to do the survey and we can ignore the fence line for now. Assuming we have correct setbacks between me and my immediate neighbor, we should be good to go with the 53' length and have the plans approved with the recorded lot width. Most likely city is not going to care about the fence line as long as the correct setbacks are left from the property line.
