Self Directed Roth IRA used for Wholesaling Real Estate

Self Directed Roth IRA used for Wholesaling Real Estate

Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes

At a recent one day guru seminar, they seemed to indicate that a Self Directed Roth IRA could be used by a wholesaler to pay the down payment to a distressed seller when putting their home under contract.

They used the example of $100 Paid to seller from the Self Directed Roth IRA, then when the contract is resold, the money from the buyer of the contract would be paid directly into the Roth IRA, at closing.

So a $100 investment would return $5000 to $10,000 in theory.

This seemed too good to be true, but I had to ask.

It seems to indicate there would be no practical limit to how much you could add to a Roth IRA in a year.

It also seems to indicate that all the proceeds from wholesaling would never really be taxed.

If this is not allowed, Is there a best practice for Wholesaling in a Self Directed Roth IRA for most ALLOWED benefit?

I am new to investing, and apologize if this is a crazy question.

Thank you for all you teach me on Bigger Pockets!

P.S I didn't buy the Course.

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Brian EastmanPro Member
Self Directed IRA & 401k Advisor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y

@Greg Bonhotal

Ahh, gurus!  Gotta love them.  I bet they also said somewhere "We are not your attorney or CPA so don't take anything we say as tax or legal advice."  CYA.

There are several problems with this concept.

1) Self-dealing. Wholesaling takes a lot of hustle. As a disqualified person to your IRA, you can administer investments, but you cannot add value to the IRA via the provision of goods or services. The IRS could very easily find that all the door knocking and hustling and negotiating that goes into creating wholesale deals constitutes the provision of services and therefore a prohibited transaction with severe tax consequences. It is possible to fund wholesale opportunities without "You being the wholesaler" so that things can be done at arm's length, but...

2) Wholesaling is considered a dealer activity and therefore something that produces trade or business income. When a tax-exempt entity engages in a trade or business on a regular or repeated basis (vague wording meaning "the IRS gets to decide if they audit you"), then the IRA is subject to taxation on Unrelated Business Taxable Income. The tax rates can quickly scale to 37% of the gains your IRA creates, with the tax paid by the IRA. The intent of this tax is to level the playing field so that taxable businesses are not placed at an unfair disadvantage when tax-exempts compete with them.

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  • Brian EastmanPro Member
    Self Directed IRA & 401k Advisor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Greg Bonhotal

    Ahh, gurus!  Gotta love them.  I bet they also said somewhere "We are not your attorney or CPA so don't take anything we say as tax or legal advice."  CYA.

    There are several problems with this concept.

    1) Self-dealing. Wholesaling takes a lot of hustle. As a disqualified person to your IRA, you can administer investments, but you cannot add value to the IRA via the provision of goods or services. The IRS could very easily find that all the door knocking and hustling and negotiating that goes into creating wholesale deals constitutes the provision of services and therefore a prohibited transaction with severe tax consequences. It is possible to fund wholesale opportunities without "You being the wholesaler" so that things can be done at arm's length, but...

    2) Wholesaling is considered a dealer activity and therefore something that produces trade or business income. When a tax-exempt entity engages in a trade or business on a regular or repeated basis (vague wording meaning "the IRS gets to decide if they audit you"), then the IRA is subject to taxation on Unrelated Business Taxable Income. The tax rates can quickly scale to 37% of the gains your IRA creates, with the tax paid by the IRA. The intent of this tax is to level the playing field so that taxable businesses are not placed at an unfair disadvantage when tax-exempts compete with them.

  • New to Real Estate · Costa Rica · Member since 2019 · 62 posts · 16 votes
    6y

    @Brian Eastman I really want to understand what you just said but it is too much for me. 
    let me see if I understand the bottom line, if I want to do a wholesale deal using my Traditional IRA (assuming my IRA broker allows it) I CANNOT because I will get audited and taxed?

  • Brian EastmanPro Member
    Self Directed IRA & 401k Advisor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Julio R Gonzalez

    There are two concerns as I outlined.  

    The work that goes into creating wholesale opportunities could be considered providing services to your IRA. Wholesale deals do not just fall in your lap. It takes a lot of work to create deals. That level of effort by you could be viewed a self-dealing prohibited transaction that results in the entire IRA being disqualified and distributed as taxable. The IRS has significant leeway to view the facts and circumstances of a particular case and make a determination of your efforts cross a line per the prohibited transactions outlined in IRC section 4975. Do you want to give the IRS that much power? With a self-directed IRA you are a fund manager placing capital, not a hustler creating deals.

    Even if wholesaling is done in a way that does not create self-dealing risk, if it is done with any frequency it is absolutely a dealer activity that creates trade or business income. It is allowable for an IRA to create trade or business income, but the IRA is taxed on the gains from such activities which create Unrelated Business Taxable Income (UBTI). So not disallowed, but likely not so profitable as one would think once you shave off as much as 37% to federal taxes... maybe a bit more to the state depending on location.

    By contrast, passive forms of income like interest, dividends, royalties, rent from real property, or the sale of an asset held over time to produce such passive income will not have tax liability, and are therefore more suitable for an IRA.

    Your IRA "broker" (actually a custodian) is passive in nature and does not vet your investments for compliance with the law. They just document what they are directed to do by you as the account holder. Sure, if there are big red flags they will put on the brakes, but they have no obligation to do so. When things are grey, you can expect exactly zero guidance from a custodian. If you want to have a particular strategy vetted for suitability, you need to consult with legal counsel. Ask your custodian point blank this question about whether they verify the legality and lack of tax exposure for investments. They will tell you the same thing I just wrote - even though their marketing may give you a different impression. Many folks think a custodian provides oversight, but if you read their contracts, it is very clear they do not.

  • New to Real Estate · Costa Rica · Member since 2019 · 62 posts · 16 votes
    6y

    @Brian Eastman. That was really good info. Just one last question. This meas that I may use the IRA to buy a "turn key" property for rental and possibly not be subject to these high taxes. If yes, how about the turn over work, or finding a tenant and all work related to property management (assuming I am doing it), wouldn't that be "work".
    Thanks a lot! 

  • Brian EastmanPro Member
    Self Directed IRA & 401k Advisor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Julio R Gonzalez

    You may not "add value to the IRA through the provision of goods or services", to paraphrase the code.

    Any sweat equity is an absolute no-no.  The turnover work for example; painting, cleaning, landscaping... you cannot do that.  Signing a lease, collecting rent checks, calling out a handyman to do a necessary repair - at a nominal level those activities likely fall under administrative activities and would not be considered provision of services.  

    Of course, if your IRA is large enough to own 10+ doors, maybe then even just pushing the paperwork around becomes of such a large scales as to consist of "work", and having a property manager would certainly be recommended.

  • New to Real Estate · Costa Rica · Member since 2019 · 62 posts · 16 votes
    6y

    @Brian Eastman

    Thanks, I understand the concept, it is definitely not "black and white" so I will make sure I talk to a legal entity before making any RE investment with my IRA.

    Julio



  • Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    Wow ! I would say shocked at how many comments are here ,, 6 ???? Is nobody reading on this or tryna learn it lol 😂.. 

    Sorry , @Brian Eastman I guess my question to you sir , and btw thanks for what you have already shared. my question is simple but not so simple 🤦 

    1 can my self directed Roth IRA do wholesale transactions without a penalty? That's obviously anyone's question who is here 😂 and I believe you covered it but not specific enough in regards to a self directed Roth IRA another question I believe I know the answer to is if I'm trying to invest money and I don't need any financial advisor because I "believe" I can find good investment opportunities myself and determine whether they are good or not myself hence the reason I chose Roth IRA instead of regular traditional IRA for the simple fact that I don't need them managing my money so to clarify I don't need a financial advisor to charge me either to tell me how I should spend my money .. so question 3.. is all I need to be successful here basically a tax professional and an attorney who specializes in the area or field I want to invest in ???

    Like a tax professional for SDRIRA and an attorney in real estate ?? Are those the 2 best friends I been looking for ??  

  • Brian EastmanPro Member
    Self Directed IRA & 401k Advisor · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Jose Madera

    Wholesaling does not work in an IRA. Period.

    Roth IRA and Traditional IRA plans are subject to the same rules against self-dealing, and both would be subject to taxation on Unrelated Business Taxable Income if engaging in a trade or business on a regular basis.

    With a self-directed IRA, you do not need someone to manage your money - self-directed means you are in charge. What you need is someone to guide you with respect to usage and rules. In a stock market based IRA, you do not have enough flexibility to need to worry much about IRS rules. Once you have full control and the capacity to invest the money in most anything, there are more rules you need to be aware of with respect to what is allowable, and what may be allowable but have tax implications that may negate the benefit of the opportunity.

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    3y

    You may wholesale in a self directed IRA (Roth or traditional) if you use a C-Corp owned by the IRA. The c-corp pays the regular 25% corporate tax rate and the rest flows down to your IRA tax free. This is the only way to avoid UBIT tax penalty.

  • Solo 401k Expert · Anaheim Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 18k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Frank Onugha:

    You may wholesale in a self directed IRA (Roth or traditional) if you use a C-Corp owned by the IRA. The c-corp pays the regular 25% corporate tax rate and the rest flows down to your IRA tax free. This is the only way to avoid UBIT tax penalty.

    You may be able to minimize the tax using C-corp, however you don't eliminate the fact that the IRA account owner is still actively involved which would disqualify the IRA. Be careful with making statements on the subject that you do not fully understand.

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