Curious about the 3rd R in the BRRRR strategy. Theory vs Reality

Curious about the 3rd R in the BRRRR strategy. Theory vs Reality

Lender · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 587 posts · 435 votes

I am a bit curious about investor's real world experiences in the refinance portion of the buy, renovate, rent, refinance, repeat process. In theory this is a great model. Buy a slightly distressed property for $100,000 with $20,000 down. Spend $10,000 in updates. Painting, minor repair, new carpeting, updating lighting fixtures, etc. Wait 6 months and then do a 75% LTV cash out refinance based on an assumed value of $150,000. This gives you a loan amount of $112,500 which leaves you with $30,000 in your pocket (assuming $2,500 closing costs). You have completely reimbursed your $20,000 in initial down payment and $10,000 in renovations and now leaves you with money for next down payment and renovations..... Yay!!!!

The success of this process is based on a very big assumption that your "great deal" and your $10,000 in renovations is going to equal a $50,000 increase in value.  Expecting an appraiser to increase value by 50% from a sale 6 months prior is a pretty big ask.  Sure this was not as difficult 5-6 years ago when you could buy foreclosures at a heck of a discount but that market doesn't really exist today.  Also I am sure this was not as difficult in the last couple years when values nationwide have risen at a pretty rapid pace.  Now we are in a market where values seem to be stagnating in most markets.  

Interested in hearing investors who have been burned by a low appraisal and also those who have successfully used this method  to turn a relatively small amount of money into a large number of investment properties.  

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Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
7y

@Eric Veronica We have done 6 total BRRRR deals recently (within the last 2 years). 3 of them we have gotten all of our cash out, but 3 of them we were into for $3,000, $5,000 and $8,000 approximately. We will be able to get all of our money back out within 18 months on those deals.

The way we look at it is we are way ahead of the game if we own a property where we have taken care of all of the deferred maintenance and all of the cap ex during the rehab phase and in 6-18 months will have $0 into the deal out of pocket. 

From what I see with people trying to get into BRRRR is they go into it expecting that full refinance payoff on every deal. Sometimes because of low appraisals or budget overages (both have happened to us) that doesn't happen. Just the nature of the business.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Chester, VA · Member since 2016 · 123 posts · 32 votes
    7y
    @Eric Veronica I had success with this. I purchased a foreclosed home for $92k and put down 20% which was $18k.. I then put new floors, new Appliances, and fresh paint all for about $6k total. The home then appraised for $145k 6 months later so I took out a 75% loan of @ $110k and paid myself back my $18k down, my $6k renovations, and pocketed an additional profit of $12k. The $12k plus the original $18k, plus my $6k for renovations gave me $36k to work with which gave me the 20% down on my next TWO rentals to BRRRR.
  • Abingdon, VA · Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    7y

    Nice!

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Eric Veronica:

    I am a bit curious about investor's real world experiences in the refinance portion of the buy, renovate, rent, refinance, repeat process. In theory this is a great model. Buy a slightly distressed property for $100,000 with $20,000 down. Spend $10,000 in updates. Painting, minor repair, new carpeting, updating lighting fixtures, etc. Wait 6 months and then do a 75% LTV cash out refinance based on an assumed value of $150,000. This gives you a loan amount of $112,500 which leaves you with $30,000 in your pocket (assuming $2,500 closing costs). You have completely reimbursed your $20,000 in initial down payment and $10,000 in renovations and now leaves you with money for next down payment and renovations..... Yay!!!!

    The success of this process is based on a very big assumption that your "great deal" and your $10,000 in renovations is going to equal a $50,000 increase in value.  Expecting an appraiser to increase value by 50% from a sale 6 months prior is a pretty big ask.  Sure this was not as difficult 5-6 years ago when you could buy foreclosures at a heck of a discount but that market doesn't really exist today.  Also I am sure this was not as difficult in the last couple years when values nationwide have risen at a pretty rapid pace.  Now we are in a market where values seem to be stagnating in most markets.  

    Interested in hearing investors who have been burned by a low appraisal and also those who have successfully used this method  to turn a relatively small amount of money into a large number of investment properties.  

     4 months back paid 2.1m. Put in $300k. It appraised at 3.2m. Got a loan for 2.5m. So I own this cash flow property with no cash 

    2 months ago bought a property for $810k. Put in about $20k. Already closed my refi. It appraised at $1.2m. Loan was $860k. So like the first, all money back and more 

    Just bought a property for 1.4m. Put in $50k.  It appraised at 1.65m. Loan will be 1.3m. So I’ll have about $150k in but that’s just over 10%. I can live with that. 

    These were quick refi "flips" in the BRRR spirit. I've had ones that were much better but 1-2 years between buy and refi. Best was $6m buy. Very little in. Appraised just over $9m. So way less than $0 in and that cash back allowed cash purchase of the others.

    TLDR: it’s very possible. Buy smart. Be in a spot to buy aggressive. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @David Sanford:
    @Eric Veronica I had success with this. I purchased a foreclosed home for $92k and put down 20% which was $18k.. I then put new floors, new Appliances, and fresh paint all for about $6k total. The home then appraised for $145k 6 months later so I took out a 75% loan of @ $110k and paid myself back my $18k down, my $6k renovations, and pocketed an additional profit of $12k. The $12k plus the original $18k, plus my $6k for renovations gave me $36k to work with which gave me the 20% down on my next TWO rentals to BRRRR.

    Way to go man! I love hearing success stories. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Eric Veronica We have done 6 total BRRRR deals recently (within the last 2 years). 3 of them we have gotten all of our cash out, but 3 of them we were into for $3,000, $5,000 and $8,000 approximately. We will be able to get all of our money back out within 18 months on those deals.

    The way we look at it is we are way ahead of the game if we own a property where we have taken care of all of the deferred maintenance and all of the cap ex during the rehab phase and in 6-18 months will have $0 into the deal out of pocket. 

    From what I see with people trying to get into BRRRR is they go into it expecting that full refinance payoff on every deal. Sometimes because of low appraisals or budget overages (both have happened to us) that doesn't happen. Just the nature of the business.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Eric Veronica we have done this strategy on over 20 properties over the past 2 years. Several of them we have been able to get all of our money out at the refinance. But as you said some had appraisals come in low and some they only gave us 70% of the current market value. So we started selling performing second position notes on the properties that performed at 10-12% and we were able to sell all of the notes and get all of our money back and still cash flow.  Although the cash flow on some of them is small, we sold them on lease options for about 5-10% higher than market value in a 4- year period of time so the pay out at that time should be really good on all of them. We are sacrificing some cash flow now for large payoffs in a few years.

  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Eric Veronica

    I have done the Brrrr strategy before I knew it was called that.

    You need do your homework projecting what rehab needs to be done and cost. Calculate the ARV and leave yourself 25% in. It works 90% of the time. The worst case is you have money stuck in and if you did your numbers right you should be able to recoup your money back out in 12-24 months.

    It’s a great plan just know your market.  You are correct the economy has changed over the last couple of years so you need to adjust accordingly.

    Good Luck!

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    7y

    We have done a few BRRRR and have only got all of our money back out when helped by market appreciation.

    The issue has been the low refinance appraisals combined with the fairly low refinance LTV (75% LTV) . So I do not forecast to get out my full investment amount. If I can reduce my investment costs at the same time as increase my equity, that is nice even if I cannot get out all of my investment.

    Example, our last BRRRR I purchased at 80% LTV at $490K. We spent ~$50K on rehab. So in at just over $155K with closing costs. With 75% LTV we need appraisal of ~$730K to get all of our money back out.

    We refinanced and got an appraisal on appeal (original appraisal was real bad, appealed appraisal was still low) at $655K.  A long ways from all of our money out.

    The numbers as though purchase price was full value (we purchased a little below value) and appraisal is full value (but appraisal was significantly lower than value as is common in refinance appraisals):

    Original position: ~$105K into it including closing for $98K equity.

    Post refinance position: ~$55K into it including original closing cost for $164K equity.  Reduced our investment in the property and increased our equity.  We end up with an investment cost to value of 8.4% (started with just over 21% investment cost to value).

    It would be nice if we could get 100% of our full investment out but so far we are not there unless we have had some market appreciation (most of our RE we have all money extracted but it was helped by the market appreciation).  I will say we do very little of the work ourselves and we do not do enough of these to get great deals on the rehabs.  if we did more work ourselves or had opportunity for cheaper contractors we could do better.

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