Private money and/or hard money loans

Private money and/or hard money loans

Residential Real Estate Agent · Cookeville, TN · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 948 votes

I've been rehabbing and investing for about 10 years now. In that time I've bought about 35 properties, mostly single family but a few multies (and there were a few years when I didn't buy anything). I still own about 1/2 of what I've bought, but I'm wanting to focus more on rehabbing and flipping next year. I can currently do 3 rehabs at a time with my own money/lines-of-credit, and I'm looking to move that up to 4 of 5 at a time. I've talked with some potential money partners, and if we do a 50/50 split of profits (partner puts up the money and I find the deals, manage the rehab, get it sold), well that's an option I guess. But I'm wondering if private money, or even hard-money would be cheaper than the equity split. A very typical deal for me looks like the following:

Purchase for 30 - 35,

Rehab for 10 - 20

All-in around 50

ARV = 80

So, how much would I typically be giving up with hard-money? I have great credit, but DTI is getting to the point that traditional banks won't loan any more. From what I've seen, the typical fees run something like:

Up-front points 4-6%

Interest 8 - 16%

What other costs? Appraisal? Title Search? Title Insurance? or are these included in the 4-6% at closing?

I'm trying to see how hard-money would compare to the equity split that my potential partners are asking for.

If I'm all-in at 50k and I can borrow all of that up-front with hard-money, I've got maybe $3000 in points. If I fix and flip in 6 months, my interest cost would be another $3000 if the rate was 12%. If appraisal, title search, title insurance are also required, that will add another $1000 (yes, I can get all 3 of these done in my area for $1000 total-combined). So, my total cost to fund the deal would be $7000? Am I missing something?

On the other hand, if I have a money partner and they want 50% of the profits, that would be $10,000 on a $20,000 profit deal. Hard-money seems cheaper.

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  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    Every hard money lender has their own fee structure. Talk to some lenders, and find out exactly what they charge for the money, and any appraisals, etc. Not all lenders require full blown appraisals, some go off comps, etc.

    There's a wealth of information on BP. Take the time to do a search, read some of the posts, etc. on HML, listen to podcasts or read blogs. If you want to learn, you're in the right place, but sometimes it takes some digging!

  • Specialist · Manhattan, NY · Member since 2013 · 116 posts · 192 votes
    12y
    Brian...Karen is right...it differs by lender....but I think your costs are broadly correct. Hard money is a good solution for someone like you. You have experience and deal-flow. You can get the projects turned around fast and under budget... So, it's actually the cheapest way to scale your business. As you build a relationship with your lender, you'll find it's fast too. I close loans with borrowers I worked with before in under a week
  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    We keep pretty good records, including asking our borrowers roughly how much the rehab was after they completed the project as well as the actual sales price.

    In general, our finance charges (points and interest) average around 5 to 6% of the actual sales price and 12% of the profit (sales price – rehab costs). These are obviously ballpark numbers since they don’t include sales costs, taxes, title and other fees. Plus, some of these are fixed and don’t affect the calculation much. They give you a sense of the relative impact of a hard money loan however.

    The greatest driver is time. The longer the duration of the project, the greater are the finance charges and the higher will be our cut of the deal. Even if I doubled the percentages above, to 12% of sales price and 24% of profit, which has actually happened just a few times on some unusual projects that took greater than a year, these numbers aren't even close to the 50% amount you might pay a JV partner.

    Using your numbers, @Bryan L. :

    Finance costs as a % of profit = $7000/($80000-$50000) = 23%

    Finance costs as a % of ARV = $7000/$80000 = 8.8%

    JV partner cost as a % of profit = 50% by agreement

    We can split hairs and argue why CA and TN are different and how HML fees vary, but neither will come close to the 50% cost of a JV.

    Rerun your numbers with whatever HML fee structure you want and you'll reach the same conclusion.

    While I know no one likes to pay HML rates, the comparison to a JV isn’t even close. There are many legitimate reasons to JV, but they are not dictated by finance charges.

    Jeff

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Cookeville, TN · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 948 votes
    12y

    Thanks @Jeff S. . I've met with two potential money partners (JV) lately, and they both wanted to do a 50/50 profit split instead of just loaning me money. I think they were both licking their chops with excitement. I think I would be giving too much away going that route.

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Jeff S. Usually on BP when I see people posting deals for joint venture partnerships, it's because they don't have the cash to put into the deals that a HML would require, and decide that if they can get the money to do the deal, and there's a healthy enough profit potential, giving away a big chunk of the deal on the other end is worth it, if they couldn't do the deal otherwise.

    I know here in southern California with the price of properties, if a person wants to do more deals than what they can personally put up the money for, and the properties are appreciating, rather than waiting several months to be able to turn the one or two deals they are in the middle of and then reinvest in another upon their sale, considering the appreciation,, etc. it may be worth it to do a joint venture. Also, all joint ventures aren't 50/50, they can be based on the actual value of what each brings to the table, as long as all parties agree, don't you think?

    For us, we've never done joint ventures before, but have used HML's that do construction loans, however; they're few and far between. We've recently considered joint ventures, but, at 50/50 it would not be worth it.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    A split can seem expensive but it can make up for that in the speed and flexibility it gives. Quicker closes, No qualifying, etc. and when you have those deals that work out badly or you take a loss (it will happen), the JV can look pretty good.

    JV will never look like the best deal in the pro forma numbers but how often do you hit the ideal numbers? In a lower return environment (like now), JV's start to look less expensive.

    JV's are what really can scale you up since you don't need to put your own cash in. Hard Money is great but you will have to tie up a chunk of your own cash.

    Either way is more money for you so good luck.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Cookeville, TN · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 948 votes
    12y

    Thanks for all of the feedback and replies. It looks like the consensus is that hard money (or private money) would generally be cheaper than doing a 50/50 profit split. My goal for 2014 is to start out using OPM and let my credit settle down so that I can get some of my credit lines extended. I have great credit, but the banks don't like my DTI. I currently have a HELOC with plenty more equity to tap into, but they won't increase the limit at this time. If I can ever get that limit increased, that would be the cheapest money. Thanks again.

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