Private Money Lender Payments

Private Money Lender Payments

Flipper/Rehabber · Toledo, OH · Member since 2020 · 34 posts · 13 votes

One of the advantages of using private money loans is that they can be structured more favorably than an HML or bank loan. However, there are still some general rules of the road that even private lenders expect. I used a PML in the past. But, it was from a family member who didn't charge any interest or points. And, my only experience with an HML was a nightmare! So, I'm looking for another private loan, but this time from an investor. I need to understand or confirm how payments are typically structured for a PML. And, I've read that private money interest can range between 5-15%, plus points. That sounds cost prohibitive for smaller loans!?! (I know each lender's terms can be different, as well as those of each project; some lenders may or may not charge points, interest can be paid at refinance, etc.). Here's what I'm trying to understand:

BRRRR Project (Example): SFH in decent condition, converted to multi-student rental
a. $60,000. asking price
b. $85,000. ARV (min.) [single family rental]
c. $10,000. cosmetic repairs and furnishings (beds, mattresses, stove and refrigerator)
d. Private loan - $70,000. at 10% interest for 12 mos., plus 2 pts.

If I understand correctly, the terms identified in Item d. (above), mean that I'll be expected to repay the lender $7,000. interest, plus $1,400. in points. But, is that $7,000. each month, throughout the term of the loan ($84,000., unless paid-off early), or is it $7,000. in total? If the former, that's more than double the expected rental income each month, and nearly pays off the entire ARV in only 12 mos. (assuming I can't refinance after seasoning for some reason)! How is that cost effective as a financing strategy?!? What am I missing here?

Also, how do I determine the true ARV, taking into account the increased value of monthly rent that's more than that of a single family's lease?

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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
4y

@Robert Walden

It would not be $7,000/mo it’s $7,000 year and the points are upfront fees of $1400.

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  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y

    @Robert Walden

    It would not be $7,000/mo it’s $7,000 year and the points are upfront fees of $1400.

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  • Lender · FL · Member since 2020 · 68 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    @Robert Walden: Chris is correct (you will pay $7,000 broken up into 12 equal payments of $583). Also, IMHO: if you have found a lender who will provide 82% Loan to ARV, that is a good deal for you as a relative new flipper.

  • Lender · rate.bid · Member since 2022 · 324 posts · 62 votes
    4y

    @Robert Walden

    For a loan of $70,000, this might be too small for many lenders to look into. The quoted rate on most rehab loans are typically per year. To get monthly equivalent divide by 12. The ARV for most SFRs are typically based on market comps.

  • Lender · Nationwide · Member since 2021 · 220 posts · 105 votes
    4y

    What's your exit strategy with this deal? The ARV will be determined at valuation. I don't necessarily think a high loan to ARV is necessarily in favor of a new investor. It slims out the investors margin for profit.

  • Alex BreshearsBusiness Member
    Lender · Springfield, MO · Member since 2020 · 354 posts · 504 votes
    4y

    Hi Robert! We actually had a great time talking about this in our biweekly private lender discussion group last night! Well timed! The payment structure can be all over the map. Some private lenders don't want monthly payments and would rather be paid when you exit the loan, through sale or refinance. Some want monthly payments, and others may want prepaid interest. Knowing that ahead of time is crucial! As for your numbers, the $7000 is spread out over the course of the year, and you would only be paying interest for the length of time you have the loan. For example, if you have a buyer for the property and it is sold in 6 months, they you will have cumulatively paid $3500 in interest with $1400 in origination points when you bought the property. Generally, private lenders do simple interest only loans as a way of calculating interest, which is different than most conventional loans that use an amortized scale, so more interest is paid upfront while the principal balance slowly gets lower and lower. The promissory note should outline HOW the interest due is calculated, when that interest is paid, if there is default interest when that kicks in and what it is, and how you make those payments. Some lenders may choose to set up loan payment processing with a loan servicer versus having a borrower mail a check etc. Also - keep in mind many private lenders are looking at a loan to cost model, with an upper limit on loan to value. For example, a lender may say they will do 80% loan to cost (so the 60k +10k renovations, 8-% of 70k is $56k), but also keeping an eye on the equity buffer after renovations, and go up to 70% ARV, so 70% of 85k = $59.5k. Rather than focusing on the interest rate, really ask about the terms of the loan, what capital they are expecting you to have to actually close the deal. If your lender is using only ARV, then your loan amount will be $59,500 as an upper limit, but if they are looking at a loan to cost model - you will want to find out what percentage they lend on. Personally as a private lender, I would not do a 100% loan with a first time borrower, especially when my loan is at 80%+ of the ARV, and the borrower wants to keep it as a rental. Rate and term refinances are going to go up to possibly 75% of the ARV, which means as a borrower you are bringing money to closing to get out of the private loan. Depending on your available capital, this may not be an option and that would force you to sell it. Always keep the exit strategy in mind, and if you can get preapproved for a conventional or DSCR loan of a certain amount, showing that to a private lender to see you have been prequalified can help your chances of getting the loan with the private lender as well.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Toledo, OH · Member since 2020 · 34 posts · 13 votes
    4y

    Thanks to everyone for your interest and support! Sorry its taken me so long to reply. I'll respond to each of your comments in order.....

    @Chris Seveney
    "$7,000. each month" was a typo. (That's more than the property produces in revenue each month. LoL ) I meant to say $7,000. each year, or is that the total amount due for the loan. Thanks for clarifying that its $7,000. per year, for as long as the loan is outstanding!

    @Dave Spector
    Thanks for your reply as well! You're right. Thus far, the best I've been able to find is 75% LTV for hard money or a bridge loans as a "new" investor. However, I have a private money lender who wants to move some retirement savings into an SDIRA to use for real estate investing and who's willing to finance the entire amount of this project. (In fact, I plan to do the same thing with my Social Security money.)

    @Frank Greg
    Yes, I've been having a great deal of trouble financing small first-time-home-buyer properties. Many of them are under $100,000., or in the $100,000. to $125,000. price range. However, I've found few lenders willing to finance anything below $150,000., much less under $100,000.  There must be a way to finance these properties!?! I just don't quite have the model worked out yet. (Any experience or recommendations on seeking hedge funds or foreign investments? I have a friend who got a big boost in their real estate career from a foreign hedge fund.)

    @Kevin Woodard
    I'm actually not a "new" investor. I've done several rehabs and wholesales in my career. I've just never used commercial loans or PML. (I self-financed, and used no-interest family loans.) This deal doesn't work as a SFH for this price, and doesn't pass the 50% rule. The owner knows the market is strong for student rentals and won't budge on price. But, he nearly completely remodeled it already. And, the increased rental income from multiple student leases makes the property a long-term cash cow! My exit strategy is to, a.) fix-and-hold (refinance), b.) fix-and-sell (turn-key), or c.) wholesale to an investor who wants to do the same thing as me. One thing I don't understand, however, is how ARV is determined for rental income?

    @Alex Breshears
    Wow! I feel like I should pay you for your time after writing such a lengthy and detailed response! And you're welcome for me providing a topic for discussion in your group. LoL As I told @Kevin Woodard, I'm not a "new" investor. But, I'm new to financing. (So, I guess it means the same thing.) I appreciate your explanation of how financing works, and what some investors expect when making PMLs. I also wasn't aware of "DSCR" financing. I'm investigating it now. That may be a good possibility for doing these smaller rental deals, as well as "portfolio loans". Any additional explanation you can provide on either of these financing options would be greatly appreciated.

    [Hint: it would be great if Bigger Pockets did a series of training videos on real estate "investment financing" (incl. the ins-and-outs of HMLs, commercial loans, PMLs, DSCRs and other real world funding opportunities). Its far more complicated than what the seminars teach; i.e., "Use OPM. You just go out and have someone loan you the money". LoL What's expected of a borrower, and the lack of loans available for smaller projects that a "new" investor might tackle can be quite daunting, especially for someone who doesn't have a private money contact or the expertise that's expected by lenders.]


    Thanks again to all of you for your valuable feedback!    :-)

  • Lender · Nationwide · Member since 2021 · 220 posts · 105 votes
    4y

    They are indirectly correlated (you can have a high ARV and low rent if the market so chooses), however if you are looking at a DSCR for the refi both will be extremely important factors.

    Leverage and ultimately cash back are both dependent on the ARV and rental income. ARV is the value of the property which determines max loan amount and ultimately payments (debt), and your income (rent) must be able to service that debt a reasonable ratio (no less than 90%). DSCR is the ratio of income to debt, and I haven't seen anything less than 90%.

    Hope this helps.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Toledo, OH · Member since 2020 · 34 posts · 13 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kevin Woodard:

    They are indirectly correlated (you can have a high ARV and low rent if the market so chooses), however if you are looking at a DSCR for the refi both will be extremely important factors.

    Leverage and ultimately cash back are both dependent on the ARV and rental income. ARV is the value of the property which determines max loan amount and ultimately payments (debt), and your income (rent) must be able to service that debt a reasonable ratio (no less than 90%). DSCR is the ratio of income to debt, and I haven't seen anything less than 90%.

    Hope this helps.

    Actually, I was hoping to use the DSCR for both the purchase and the reno. (Not sure if that's its purpose, or even allowed!?!) The purchase amount is $60,000., repairs are $15,000., ARV is $85,000. if one family ($110,000. estimate if 3 unrelated student renters), and $2,550. gross monthly rental income.
  • Downey, CA · Member since 2022 · 81 posts · 48 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Alex Breshears:

    Hi Robert! We actually had a great time talking about this in our biweekly private lender discussion group last night! Well timed! The payment structure can be all over the map. Some private lenders don't want monthly payments and would rather be paid when you exit the loan, through sale or refinance. Some want monthly payments, and others may want prepaid interest. Knowing that ahead of time is crucial! As for your numbers, the $7000 is spread out over the course of the year, and you would only be paying interest for the length of time you have the loan. For example, if you have a buyer for the property and it is sold in 6 months, they you will have cumulatively paid $3500 in interest with $1400 in origination points when you bought the property. Generally, private lenders do simple interest only loans as a way of calculating interest, which is different than most conventional loans that use an amortized scale, so more interest is paid upfront while the principal balance slowly gets lower and lower. The promissory note should outline HOW the interest due is calculated, when that interest is paid, if there is default interest when that kicks in and what it is, and how you make those payments. Some lenders may choose to set up loan payment processing with a loan servicer versus having a borrower mail a check etc. Also - keep in mind many private lenders are looking at a loan to cost model, with an upper limit on loan to value. For example, a lender may say they will do 80% loan to cost (so the 60k +10k renovations, 8-% of 70k is $56k), but also keeping an eye on the equity buffer after renovations, and go up to 70% ARV, so 70% of 85k = $59.5k. Rather than focusing on the interest rate, really ask about the terms of the loan, what capital they are expecting you to have to actually close the deal. If your lender is using only ARV, then your loan amount will be $59,500 as an upper limit, but if they are looking at a loan to cost model - you will want to find out what percentage they lend on. Personally as a private lender, I would not do a 100% loan with a first time borrower, especially when my loan is at 80%+ of the ARV, and the borrower wants to keep it as a rental. Rate and term refinances are going to go up to possibly 75% of the ARV, which means as a borrower you are bringing money to closing to get out of the private loan. Depending on your available capital, this may not be an option and that would force you to sell it. Always keep the exit strategy in mind, and if you can get preapproved for a conventional or DSCR loan of a certain amount, showing that to a private lender to see you have been prequalified can help your chances of getting the loan with the private lender as well.


     

    Alex Breshear
    Thank you for taking the time to answer in detail it unintentionally helps me too lol

  • Lender · Nationwide · Member since 2021 · 220 posts · 105 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Robert Walden:
    Quote from @Kevin Woodard:

    They are indirectly correlated (you can have a high ARV and low rent if the market so chooses), however if you are looking at a DSCR for the refi both will be extremely important factors.

    Leverage and ultimately cash back are both dependent on the ARV and rental income. ARV is the value of the property which determines max loan amount and ultimately payments (debt), and your income (rent) must be able to service that debt a reasonable ratio (no less than 90%). DSCR is the ratio of income to debt, and I haven't seen anything less than 90%.

    Hope this helps.

    Actually, I was hoping to use the DSCR for both the purchase and the reno. (Not sure if that's its purpose, or even allowed!?!) The purchase amount is $60,000., repairs are $15,000., ARV is $85,000. if one family ($110,000. estimate if 3 unrelated student renters), and $2,550. gross monthly rental income.
    That is not the intended purpose. There are products that exist, but to fit the property into the box is tough. 

    Your best bet would be to do a HM/PM value add loan then refi into a DSCR. The appraised value sub-100k may pose an issue for the long term loan.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Toledo, OH · Member since 2020 · 34 posts · 13 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kevin Woodard:
    Quote from @Robert Walden:
    Quote from @Kevin Woodard:

    They are indirectly correlated (you can have a high ARV and low rent if the market so chooses), however if you are looking at a DSCR for the refi both will be extremely important factors.

    Leverage and ultimately cash back are both dependent on the ARV and rental income. ARV is the value of the property which determines max loan amount and ultimately payments (debt), and your income (rent) must be able to service that debt a reasonable ratio (no less than 90%). DSCR is the ratio of income to debt, and I haven't seen anything less than 90%.

    Hope this helps.

    Actually, I was hoping to use the DSCR for both the purchase and the reno. (Not sure if that's its purpose, or even allowed!?!) The purchase amount is $60,000., repairs are $15,000., ARV is $85,000. if one family ($110,000. estimate if 3 unrelated student renters), and $2,550. gross monthly rental income.
    That is not the intended purpose. There are products that exist, but to fit the property into the box is tough. 

    Your best bet would be to do a HM/PM value add loan then refi into a DSCR. The appraised value sub-100k may pose an issue for the long term loan.

    @Kevin Woodard

    What about a portfolio loan for doing several projects like this, or crowd funding? There's got to be a way to renovate these types of neighborhoods that have the potential to be great first-time homes or rental properties, but so often get neglected in favor of big suburban homes!?!

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