how do the loans work as you scale?

how do the loans work as you scale?

Investor · SE Wisconsin · Member since 2019 · 111 posts · 71 votes

Today, I own a small real estate company (LLC partnership). It owns 1 property, which it rents, and has one mortgage against that property, which it pays. I personally guaranteed that loan based on my assets and income, which is fine for now. But...that clearly won't scale and the point of doing this is to be able to quit that W2-paying job. So at some point there must be a way to not have to guarantee future loans. How does that work?

Let's fast-forward a bit as this RE business scales. Let's say it owns 20 properties, each with PV 150K. It has 3M in assets and 2.4M in mortgages, for net assets of 600K. It gets 1% per month in rent and pays .8% per month in expenses (PMI, maintenance, mgt co, etc).

So at the end of the year, that business files the following:

income: 1.5k*20*12: 360K

expenses: 1.2K*20*12: 288K

profit: 72K

depreciation: 3.5% * 3M == 105K

that entity files (because it's a partnership) and it issues a K1 to each of the partners (me + spouse) that passes everything through. And let's say I've since quit the W2 job. collectively, our personal return would look like:

72K passive income, 105K passive loss. So 72K income and no taxes, with some carried fwd losses. woot.

That's pretty great, but it's not going to support signing as the guarantor for the loan on houses 21-25 that the business wants to acquire, or to sign my personal income against new loans if the business wanted to refi the current 20 houses.

So, at SOME point, it seems the business has to be able to do this on its own. It has, in this example, 360K in income and a track record of renting houses profitably. Are there loan types that it could apply for that would not require me to guarantee it based on my income? Surely this is how larger rental business scale, right? What are those loans called, and what's required to qualify for them?

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Lender · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2022 · 739 posts · 410 votes
4y

Hi @Andrew C., (great name by the way) most people start off in conventional. You can get up to 10 conventionally financed properties in your name. Those come with the lowest rates but they do not lend to business entities. 

Therefore, you will be looking at a few different options:

1. DSCR - They lend to business entities and they qualify you based on the income generated by the property, not your personal income.

2. Business purpose loans - Similar to the DSCR. They qualify the business based on the business's income generated from properties. You can use this to fix up, buy, or renovate properties.

3. Portfolio loans - This is where you start to have a lot of different properties. You can cross-collateralize them and they typically do not require you to personally guarantee them.

Hope this helps! Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

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  • Robin SimonBusiness Member
    Lender · Austin, TX · Member since 2022 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    Andrew - what you are looking for to scale are DSCR loans, which are built pretty much exactly for the situation you describe above. Qualifying is based on the property cash flow and personal credit score and there is no DTI and no consideration to your personal income or rest of your portfolio. It is also preferred to lend a DSCR loan to an LLC rather than an individual. Note - you will have to sign personal guarantees on these loans, but once you get to the 20-25 properties as described above you will be ready to likely refinance all the properties into a large portfolio loan that looks more like a commercial loan.

    Basically from a financing perspective as you scale, it will generally follow the path of 

    Conventional (FHA/Agency) --> DSCR --> Non-Recourse Large Portfolio Loans

  • Member since 2022 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Robin Simon:

    Andrew - what you are looking for to scale are DSCR loans, which are built pretty much exactly for the situation you describe above. Qualifying is based on the property cash flow and personal credit score and there is no DTI and no consideration to your personal income or rest of your portfolio. It is also preferred to lend a DSCR loan to an LLC rather than an individual. Note - you will have to sign personal guarantees on these loans, but once you get to the 20-25 properties as described above you will be ready to likely refinance all the properties into a large portfolio loan that looks more like a commercial loan.

    Basically from a financing perspective as you scale, it will generally follow the path of 

    Conventional (FHA/Agency) --> DSCR --> Non-Recourse Large Portfolio Loans


    By that note, could you then use a DSCR to secure your first Rental property, granting that you use an LLC to do so?

  • Lender · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2022 · 739 posts · 410 votes
    4y

    Hi @Andrew C., (great name by the way) most people start off in conventional. You can get up to 10 conventionally financed properties in your name. Those come with the lowest rates but they do not lend to business entities. 

    Therefore, you will be looking at a few different options:

    1. DSCR - They lend to business entities and they qualify you based on the income generated by the property, not your personal income.

    2. Business purpose loans - Similar to the DSCR. They qualify the business based on the business's income generated from properties. You can use this to fix up, buy, or renovate properties.

    3. Portfolio loans - This is where you start to have a lot of different properties. You can cross-collateralize them and they typically do not require you to personally guarantee them.

    Hope this helps! Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

  • Investor · SE Wisconsin · Member since 2019 · 111 posts · 71 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Andrew Garcia:

    Hi @Andrew C., (great name by the way) most people start off in conventional. You can get up to 10 conventionally financed properties in your name. Those come with the lowest rates but they do not lend to business entities. 

    Therefore, you will be looking at a few different options:

    1. DSCR - They lend to business entities and they qualify you based on the income generated by the property, not your personal income.

    2. Business purpose loans - Similar to the DSCR. They qualify the business based on the business's income generated from properties. You can use this to fix up, buy, or renovate properties.

    3. Portfolio loans - This is where you start to have a lot of different properties. You can cross-collateralize them and they typically do not require you to personally guarantee them.

    Hope this helps! Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

    I keep hearing that ‘everyone starts with conventional’…..but I’m seeing ~6.5 from conventional and as low as 4.5 from commercial. Is that just an unusual situation? Other than perhaps the higher supported ltv, I can’t see why I’d use the conventional.  What am I missing?
  • Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    DSCR ALSO has reserve requirements which are liquid (checking, savings and either 60-70% of 401k and stocks). The reserve requirement is going to hold you back.

    You can close DSCR in your personal name.

     @Andrew C.  most self employed owners show losses not the net $72000 profit. Six hundred in equity is not used in qualifying for any loan type, you need liquid assets.

    There are other strategies you can use: Bank statement loans, asset depletion loans, and a number of other options.

    Stay on your W-2 job. Going on a Cobra or paying market rate for insurance is a reason to keep working.  Keep your credit perfect. 

  • Lender · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2022 · 739 posts · 410 votes
    4y

    @Andrew C., it depends on your scenario but on Friday, I quoted an investor a conventional rate in the 5s. 6.5 seems high but I am not familiar with your borrower profile.

    4.5% is also really low. Typically, those rates are available for CMBS or MF agency loans. Current rates for DSCR or other non-QM residential loans are around 7%. I would be cautious of the company that quoted you 4.5% unless they are a regional bank or credit union that is going to hold the paper.

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