Help analyzing in Sacramento.

Help analyzing in Sacramento.

Sacramento, CA · Member since 2017 · 54 posts · 19 votes

Hey, BP peeps.

So for practice, I've been attempting to analyzing one deal per day. I'm still a few months away financially from pulling the trigger.

It's been three days, and three deals analyzed. So far so good, right? Trust the process and all that.

My issue is: in Sacramento, the three properties I've run the numbers through are all cash flowing negative at conventional 20% down loans. It's not in the negative too much, but three properties and three negative cash flows, therefore three negative ROI. Today's property, for example, only lost about $18 per month for two separate buildings, and the lot is zoned for 5 more units. Could be a good deal for someone.

My question therefore is: going forward, can anyone give me a rule of thumb for quickly vetting potential deals? Like the "X% rule" for Sacramento and surrounding areas.

Specifically I'm looking for small multi-family in the $350,000 to $400,000 range.

With these within three, I'm thinking the 1% rule will suffice from now on, but I would love the input of other local investors.

Thanks!

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Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 738 posts · 1k+ votes
7y

@Keith Torsen

Part of the problem with your approach is that your criteria for a "deal" requires the bare minimum down payment.

Yes, leverage is great, and wouldn't it be nice if all properties cash-flowed with 20-25% down... but some will require more. And if the property is in a great area, in great condition, that must be taken into consideration as well. So what if the property cash-flows if it's in a bad area and the tenants beat it to crap. CapEx and Maintenance will eat you alive.

Perhaps we can help you further if you gave us an example of your process on one of those analyzed properties, and we might find a deal where vacancy, property management, maintenance, etc. is too high.

I suggest this because the 1% rule metric you're using is not applicable to Sacramento, and most other markets for that matter. That's like saying you'll buy a $400k house and rent it for $4,000/mo when it costs only $2,850/mo to buy it with 5% down. Not going to happen. The closest you can get is usually either a duplex in a crappy area and super low price, or a fourplex in a crappy area you'd probably rather not own. 

All numbers are relative, and dependent upon location. What you have to do is decide which primary metric you want to analyze properties with, and then calculate the average for recent past sales AND what's currently available on the market to determine an average. Then compare prospective properties against that.

For example, let's say you're using the 1% rule metric, and the average for the area and property type you're considering is 0.6%. If you come across a property that is 0.85%, then you know it performs far better than average and could thereby be considered a "deal" -- if it fits your other criteria.

And perhaps that's what's most important. Instead of using some golden metric (everybody has their favorite), determine what you really want to get out of the deal. Cashflow? Appreciation? Something to secure your retirement? Then use that as a guideline instead.

All too often beginning investors try to impose an unrealistic criteria for a given market, when achieving that criteria is impossible for that area because it doesn't exist.

I get investors who say "I want $1,000/mo cashflow with minimal down in a B class area" -- and for the most part that doesn't exist. They're looking for a unicorn and potentially missing many other deals that would work for their needs, but because they're imposing some external criteria it must meet beforehand they don't even see them or skip right over them.

Make sense?

And as for expected rents, are you currently working with an agent? We can get you the rents right off the MLS so you can see what the property is currently renting for. And you can't just assume a specific rent will apply to all of Sacramento. You must take it on a case-by-case basis as it will depend on location, size of units (not just bedrooms, sq ft) and condition/upgrades of the unit. A 2/1 of the same size might get $1,400 in Tahoe Park but $900 in Oak Park. Once again, it's all relative.

Also, perhaps try looking in a lower price range. 

3747 9th Ave, Sacramento, CA 95817 - $315k

"SELLER IS LOOKING TO SELL FAST. MOVE OUT OF STATE FOR JOB. Duplex with GREAT income. All rents where just increased an are at market. Front unit has new flooring, painted through out. Studio in back has long term tenant."

Gross rents are $2,225. PITI with 25% down and a 5% interest rate at the asking price is $1688. Leaving you a $527 spread for other expenses, management, etc. I'd suggest self-managing it, passing as many utility expenses as possible onto the tenants to keep as much as that money as possible.

Property has been on the market 93 days without a single price drop, seller is in a motivated situation, so here's your chance to get a discount. I bet the seller will have a hard time mentally selling for less than $300k though (big price point), but even just that $15k off would free up another $81/mo.

BUT WAIT -- THERE'S MORE! Because I'm an agent I can see that the seller was asking $289k in December of last year, so it seems like you definitely could get less than $300k. At $289k that would free up another $59/mo. So we're up to $677 net considering gross rent and PITI.

Putting 25% down on $289k instead of $400k saves you $27,750 in cash to keep in reserves for repairs & maintenance, etc. And I'd suggest on the first turnover of each unit you spend that money to spruce it up and charge even more rent.

Or, put the full $100k down on the loan and free up another $149 in monthly cash-flow. That's $826 a month before other expenses, and there's no way you won't be positive on a duplex even if you overpay or overestimate for everything else.

Violent crime isn't bad at all for the last six months. Perhaps being two doors down from a church on one side and 8 doors down from a church on the other side is keeping the sinners away.

As you can see, opportunities exist. Only a .77% on the 1% rule @289k and 25% down. But if it put $200-300 in your pocket every month while continuing to go up in value as someone else paid your mortgage, with rent going up from inflation if nothing else, would that be worth it to you?

As for lowballing in general, you can basically forget it on any new properties. Way too much demand. Maybe if it's been on the market 60-90 days, but not new stuff. Just sold a home and got 3 offers in 3 days on the first weekend. 

Also, for a residential multifamily investment property, if you're not planning on house-hacking typically it's 25% down, not 20% like with a SFR. But I could be mistaken and that may vary from lender to lender. Check with your lender first before deciding a deal is a deal.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Fairfield, CA · Member since 2019 · 74 posts · 31 votes
    7y

    @Keith Torsen

    Hi Keith! I’m new here too so I doubt that I vet deals any more efficiently than you at this point, but I would suggest bumping up to 2 deals a day and here’s why. Obviously, you’ll get to analyze more deals and that’s good, but I think you’ll find that it won’t take double the time to do so because you’ll be less concerned about which deal you analyze and you’ll get to the actual analysis quicker. Additionally, it gives you a pair of deals to compare every day. I’d also suggest analyzing other types of deals like single family homes, just to get a broader knowledge of the market in Sacramento.

    Best of luck!

  • Property Manager · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 21 posts · 6 votes
    7y

    Hi Keith,

    We are shifting more to a buy and hold market these days in Sacramento. Make sure you have maximum rents calculated in your project. I lot depends on the area of the units. Glad to help anytime. Philip

  • Sacramento, CA · Member since 2017 · 54 posts · 19 votes
    7y

    @Philip Sparks

    Thanks. I'm currently using $1,150-$1,250 in my expected rents, depending on area, because that's what rentals in my neighborhood go for, for multi family and apartments. I havent bothered to look up SFR rents yet, because I didnt want to start with single family. I just might just because inventory is heavier. If these rent rates look a little off, I'd love some help.

    Thank you for replying

    @Adam Engle-Sorrell

    Yes, I would love to work up to two deals per day. I've had the same thought, and next week I'll introduce a second analysis to my daily routine. I've already thought of checking out single family homes, just for the practice. I also have only been using the ask price. I havent gone through and figured out how these places will work if I lowball their offers. For example, could I get a positive cash flow at $250k instead of $275k, which was the list price for yesterday's deal. Thanks for the input! Really appreciate it.

  • Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 738 posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Keith Torsen

    Part of the problem with your approach is that your criteria for a "deal" requires the bare minimum down payment.

    Yes, leverage is great, and wouldn't it be nice if all properties cash-flowed with 20-25% down... but some will require more. And if the property is in a great area, in great condition, that must be taken into consideration as well. So what if the property cash-flows if it's in a bad area and the tenants beat it to crap. CapEx and Maintenance will eat you alive.

    Perhaps we can help you further if you gave us an example of your process on one of those analyzed properties, and we might find a deal where vacancy, property management, maintenance, etc. is too high.

    I suggest this because the 1% rule metric you're using is not applicable to Sacramento, and most other markets for that matter. That's like saying you'll buy a $400k house and rent it for $4,000/mo when it costs only $2,850/mo to buy it with 5% down. Not going to happen. The closest you can get is usually either a duplex in a crappy area and super low price, or a fourplex in a crappy area you'd probably rather not own. 

    All numbers are relative, and dependent upon location. What you have to do is decide which primary metric you want to analyze properties with, and then calculate the average for recent past sales AND what's currently available on the market to determine an average. Then compare prospective properties against that.

    For example, let's say you're using the 1% rule metric, and the average for the area and property type you're considering is 0.6%. If you come across a property that is 0.85%, then you know it performs far better than average and could thereby be considered a "deal" -- if it fits your other criteria.

    And perhaps that's what's most important. Instead of using some golden metric (everybody has their favorite), determine what you really want to get out of the deal. Cashflow? Appreciation? Something to secure your retirement? Then use that as a guideline instead.

    All too often beginning investors try to impose an unrealistic criteria for a given market, when achieving that criteria is impossible for that area because it doesn't exist.

    I get investors who say "I want $1,000/mo cashflow with minimal down in a B class area" -- and for the most part that doesn't exist. They're looking for a unicorn and potentially missing many other deals that would work for their needs, but because they're imposing some external criteria it must meet beforehand they don't even see them or skip right over them.

    Make sense?

    And as for expected rents, are you currently working with an agent? We can get you the rents right off the MLS so you can see what the property is currently renting for. And you can't just assume a specific rent will apply to all of Sacramento. You must take it on a case-by-case basis as it will depend on location, size of units (not just bedrooms, sq ft) and condition/upgrades of the unit. A 2/1 of the same size might get $1,400 in Tahoe Park but $900 in Oak Park. Once again, it's all relative.

    Also, perhaps try looking in a lower price range. 

    3747 9th Ave, Sacramento, CA 95817 - $315k

    "SELLER IS LOOKING TO SELL FAST. MOVE OUT OF STATE FOR JOB. Duplex with GREAT income. All rents where just increased an are at market. Front unit has new flooring, painted through out. Studio in back has long term tenant."

    Gross rents are $2,225. PITI with 25% down and a 5% interest rate at the asking price is $1688. Leaving you a $527 spread for other expenses, management, etc. I'd suggest self-managing it, passing as many utility expenses as possible onto the tenants to keep as much as that money as possible.

    Property has been on the market 93 days without a single price drop, seller is in a motivated situation, so here's your chance to get a discount. I bet the seller will have a hard time mentally selling for less than $300k though (big price point), but even just that $15k off would free up another $81/mo.

    BUT WAIT -- THERE'S MORE! Because I'm an agent I can see that the seller was asking $289k in December of last year, so it seems like you definitely could get less than $300k. At $289k that would free up another $59/mo. So we're up to $677 net considering gross rent and PITI.

    Putting 25% down on $289k instead of $400k saves you $27,750 in cash to keep in reserves for repairs & maintenance, etc. And I'd suggest on the first turnover of each unit you spend that money to spruce it up and charge even more rent.

    Or, put the full $100k down on the loan and free up another $149 in monthly cash-flow. That's $826 a month before other expenses, and there's no way you won't be positive on a duplex even if you overpay or overestimate for everything else.

    Violent crime isn't bad at all for the last six months. Perhaps being two doors down from a church on one side and 8 doors down from a church on the other side is keeping the sinners away.

    As you can see, opportunities exist. Only a .77% on the 1% rule @289k and 25% down. But if it put $200-300 in your pocket every month while continuing to go up in value as someone else paid your mortgage, with rent going up from inflation if nothing else, would that be worth it to you?

    As for lowballing in general, you can basically forget it on any new properties. Way too much demand. Maybe if it's been on the market 60-90 days, but not new stuff. Just sold a home and got 3 offers in 3 days on the first weekend. 

    Also, for a residential multifamily investment property, if you're not planning on house-hacking typically it's 25% down, not 20% like with a SFR. But I could be mistaken and that may vary from lender to lender. Check with your lender first before deciding a deal is a deal.

  • Sacramento, CA · Member since 2017 · 54 posts · 19 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell

    Thank you for the detailed response. I'm currently analyzing for practice to get used to the process and actually discover what's out there, and how the math is supposed to work. I was hoping for a general guideline to weed out properties faster, but for now, I'm pretty much just taking a listing from my realtor, running the numbers, trying to hammer my numbers down, and seeing how the Sacramento market actually plays out.

    For example, one of my first properties I ran numbers through had a 0.6% cap rate, but I was factoring in 10% cap ex, repairs, and vacancy. That was a triplex with 20% down.

    A quick Google search showed that Sacramento vacancy, on average, is 2.88%, so the next couple of "deals" I'll look at I'll use a 5% vacancy rate. Is this the right thinking for this? Property management needs to be included, whether I'm managing myself or not. (Which I'm definitely doing at the beginning. I can pay myself and turn around and reinvest into the company. )

    I will be house hacking it, so I'd like to start with a triplex, minimum, but it's looking like I may have to turn to duplex or SFRs to get my foot in the door and work my way up. I've already been told by several lenders in my area that I can treat up to 4 units as residential, so I could even qualify for FHA loans at a ridiculously low down payment. I ran the numbers for 3.5% down and 20% down, and just the estimated mortgage payment had a $700 difference on one property, and a $600 difference on the second... So cash flowing an FHA funded 4plex in Sac is pretty much futile. Possible, legally, but futile from an investment standpoint.

    My metric for a "good" first deal, is if on paper it could cash flow $50 per month. That seems like a decent starting point. If im looking at it the wrong way, please correct me, but an extra $50 per month seems like a solid, reasonable goal for me to attain as a new investor.

    Again, thank you so much for the detailed reply

  • Real Estate Agent · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 135 votes
    7y

    Want cash flow? Either look in a D-F neighborhood or put a lot down. Unfortunately there aren't really many deals to be had nor a quick way to only find the deals. Just gotta weed through them all to see if they make financial sense. Shouldn't take too long to weed through, look at asking price compared to rent that it brings in. You could quickly go through a couple properties a minute. 

  • Sacramento, CA · Member since 2017 · 54 posts · 19 votes
    7y

    @Derek Jones

    Thank you for the insight. It seems like Sacramento isnt a very beginner-friendly market. I live here, though, and I'm determined to learn how the market works here before deciding to look elsewhere.

    The deals that *are* out there are going to be worth the effort.

  • Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 738 posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Keith Torsen

    If you're house-hacking, your goal should really just be to get as close as possible to $0 for your share of the mortgage payment, with the majority of it being paid for by the other tenants.

    That's because you're losing the income from the unit you are living in. So of course the gross income will be reduced. It will be a different deal when you move out though, so you can take that into some consideration.

    Here's the cheapest triplex on the market in Sacramento:

    4961 Mascot Ave, Sacramento, CA 95820 - $325k

    "Affordable investment opportunity with the ability to hit the one percent rule with a little elbow grease. Two of the three units are leased grossing $2025, tenants on a month to month. All three units have indoor laundry and are habitable in current condition but mostly in original condition. Selling as-is."

    If you lived in the small 2/1, 450 sq ft unit, you could rent the other two units out for a combined $2,025.

    But even with 20% down your PITI will be $2,438.98 per month, leaving a balance of roughly $415/mo you'll have to pay AND include your share of utilities, etc. With only 3.5% down it's $836.64/mo before utilities and other expenses.

    What's the benefit? You now own and control a $325k property for less than a thousand dollars a month. And if you move out in a year or two and rent the third unit for $500/mo the property will almost pay for itself. Perhaps with a little cosmetic renovation it will even go above that and net you a little money.

    Having an extra unit would help (fourplex), but trying to get one for under $400k is going to be slim pickings in Sacramento (2 on the market at that price) and so they will be the worst quality properties in the worst quality areas.

    House-hacking really isn't intended for cash-flow unless you're putting a fat chunk of money down. It's meant to allow you to own a property for far less per month than you would normally have to pay and get your foot in the door to owning investment property. Perhaps when you move out and rent the unit you were living in you'll have some cash-flow, but you'll also have to pay for the place you move out to so it may offset.

    I would consider looking at duplexes where you end up paying the same per month as you are now (renting, I'm assuming), as you'll own instead of rent, have a nicer quality property in a nicer area which will attract better tenants and give you less repairs and maintenance issues and costs in the future, and allow you to own a property for the same you're paying in rent that you can one day move out of and rent that unit to possibly cash-flow. 

    But trying to go for cash-flow when you're house-hacking isn't really going to work for the price range you're in and amount you're putting down.

  • Sacramento, CA · Member since 2017 · 54 posts · 19 votes
    7y

    @Wes Blackwell

    Yes, I've seen that property on the market, and was thinking about pursuing it. I never thought about house hacking like that. I guess I simply got lost in the idea of cash flow.

    Yes, I simply want to house hack to get my foot in the door of real estate investing, and I'm going to go back and properly look at that triplex and see if I can find the number that works for me. Thanks for the insight.

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