Capitalization Rate, How often do you.....

Capitalization Rate, How often do you.....

Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

With a lot of changes in our personal life, I have had to re-visit all of our investments. There is no doubt that well purchased and well managed rental properties, whether a SFR, a small multi-family, a large multi-family, commercial, retail or even land, can bring a nice income and build wealth. But one of the toughest questions that I am facing, and I wonder if anyone else faces it, is WHEN to abandon (sell) an asset and redeploy that capital? Therefore, my first question to you seasoned investors is, 'How often do you figure the Cap Rate on the properties you own?' A $50,000 property that you bought in 2009 that rents for $750 is very different if that property is worth $150,000 today and rents for $900 a month. I just added an Excel Spreadsheet column to give me my current Cap Rate and was shocked. Most of my properties are returning a less than 5% Cap Rate. We just deployed some capital into an Apartment Syndication that is returning 8% from year one, and more after that. And while appreciation is nice, it doesn't buy the month's groceries. So my second question is this, "When/How do you decide to sell an asset?" If an SFR is a 15% cap rate at purchase but is at a 4% cap rate today, is it a candidate for selling? Obviously, if you are an 'Appreciation Investor', the Cap Rate is not as important. But if you are a "Cash Flow" investor, the Cap Rate is vital. I would love to hear many opinions!

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Rental Property Investor · SF Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 49 posts · 54 votes
7y

I have some terrible roe in some of my places but I just consider it $ in the bank as they are safe A class properties in the Bay Area. Some commercial on the freeway with signage rights, plexes near desirable downtown cores, etc... Could I 1031 into better cash flowing areas in Cleveland or Indianapolis sure but that would be going from the penthouse to the outhouse and my money wouldn’t be nearly as safe. So, you need to consider the quality of the asset in your calculations as well as the cap rate.

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y

    I buy and sell properties more often than most investors.....but it ends up being for a few reasons.  1) I get bored with some properties, 2) by buying different types of assets, it lends credibility to my business as an agent to sell those other kinds of assets, and 3) to avoid upcoming large capex costs.

    However, I actually believe a better wealth building strategy for most people is to simply continue to hold onto most of their real estate assets. Buying and selling is costly.  Now if there are better opportunities you specifically want to get into, then by all means people should sell and upgrade. However choosing to sell because the asset you have purchased is performing better than expected....that I dont think is a good reason to sell.

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2014 · 289 posts · 374 votes
    7y

    The question I would (and do) ask is: are the absolute dollars in income enough to justify the time and expense of ownership? Cap rate is nice but income is what matters. Your cap rate only went down because the value of your properties went up. So what? Are they still performing well? Are they a hassle? Do you think your market is getting overpriced and therefore maybe it's time to exit? I think focusing on cap rate misses the point if what you care about is dollars to live on. 

  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Thank you Russell.  You are correct that buying and selling does incur costs.  But as you mentioned, so does a large Cap Ex expense.  My problem is that I have just been holding properties for too long, some approaching 30 years.  If I would have sold some of those back in the 2005-2008 time frame, and then bought in 2009-2011, imagine where I would be today.  I was able to weather the 2008-09 recession because I did nothing and just kept collecting rent. I did buy a few in the 2010-13 time frame, but I could have bought a LOT more if I would have just been cognizant of where my performance actually was.  And while trying to TIME the market is tough, KNOWING the market isn't.  Here is one example, I have as asset that is NETTING me just shy of $1,000 a month (last years net was $11,500) and my Realtor tells me that it is worth about $350,000.00 today.  Let's be conservative and say I net $300,000 in my pocket.  A first year newbie could deploy $300,000 and make more than $1,000 a month today.  Also, let's say I borrow $300,000 to buy something.  At 4.5%, my payment is $1,520.06.  I would be better off being the LENDER than holding $300,000 to make $1,000 a month.  Sometimes, holding, while being safe, is not the most advantageous.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 919 posts · 911 votes
    7y

    @Mike McKinzie, you have a bunch of questions to ask yourself.  Just a few:

    1,  Is it easy?  Yeah, you COULD sell it for $350k, netting you 300k?  But you are making $1000.  Is that an 'easy $1000' or do you have to take the first person that walks by.

    2.  Are you planning on avoiding cap gains and depreciation recapture?  If so, you are selling at the top of a market and buying at the top as well.  You will probably be 'net zero'.

    3.  If you were able to sell in 2008 and buy back in at 2012 you would have still paid depreciation recapture and cap gains.  And even if you DID do that, would you have bought in at the bottom of the market?  PPL were scared to death.  Hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20.  ;-)

    It sounds like it is an older property and is requiring maintenance.  Have you gone thru the whole place and figured out what it would take to make it 'bulletproof'?  It shouldn't be too much.  You will have maintenance on any property.  If it's a good area, you might be able to upgrade it and get 10-20% more for rent.

    I am in a similar situation as you, but for a different reason.  I want to move from a specific property, but I really can't.  It's in CA, prop 13 protected, and I will never live at the property.  My ONLY option is piggy bank/equity strip.  Even then I need to be careful as there are more rules than there used to be.  

    And IF you decide to equity strip, don't get too far 'over your skis', if you know what I mean.  ;-) 

  • Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes
    7y

    I am having similar issue with this also.

    Add on to that, I am looking at my income and debt ratio also.

    I got some SFR on mortgage and some fully paid off and they are all on my name.

    Recently I encountered several deals (generate more cash and income, thus similar issue with Mike McKinzie) that I can down payment with if I sold those. However, it will shoot my income and debt ratio up (I do not know if a commercial loan will be counted in the personal income and debt ratio and hurt my ability to do a commercial loan? Please enlightened me. Thanks)

  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Another point is, after over 40 years of handling tenant complaints, vacancies, large repairs, (last year my repairs totalled $111,618)  Maybe it's just time to scale down and lessen the headaches (I have 5 vacancies right now).  But the truth is, none of you, if you had $300,000 in cash would buy a rental that nets less than a grand a month unless there was some extenuating circumstance, like buying equity.

  • Real Estate Broker · Greer, SC · Member since 2013 · 548 posts · 271 votes
    7y

    @Mike McKinzie your return on equity is what you're talking about. When your ROE is low it's time to redeploy.

  • Rental Property Investor · Canton, OH · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Mike McKinzie

    When the headaches of management are too much and the income doesn't pay you.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jason Dillard:

    @Mike McKinzie your return on equity is what you're talking about. When your ROE is low it's time to redeploy.

    Well said...and infrequently done by investors.  I have been pivoting from value to cash flow plays (while always adding value).

    If we are not selling properties, it is the same as buying them at today's prices (excluding the impact of mortgage rate changes). The forecasted future IRR may be fine and continue to meet an investor's criteria...but most investors do not subject their existing portfolio to the same criteria as their acquisitions. And, they would not buy their properties at today's prices.

  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Thank you Mike, CJ and Jason, and the rest of you.  I like to think that when your return on equity drops below a 10 Year Treasury Bill, it might be a good idea to redeploy.  Capital Gains, depreciation recapture and cost of selling are just normal costs of doing business.  Why deal with all the headaches of owning rental property if your cap rate is below 2%?

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
    7y

    @Mike McKinzie, The question you're asking is the thing that keeps me up at night! I think redeploying real estate equity is easier said than done, especially in today's environment of compressed cap rates. On the surface, yes, if I can move from a lower to higher return on equity, then it would make a lot of sense, but I believe people have to be cognizant of all the risks involved. 

    A few thoughts on that point: 

    It seems to me that selling when your properties are high inherently increases the risk in terms of where you are in the cycle and how your timing turns out upon redeployment (higher risk, higher reward, I suppose...). 

    Also, if there is already a large spread between returns on your existing portfolio versus other properties in the same market, then it begs the question of whether your existing properties are being under-utilized somehow. 

    If it were simple, everyone would be doing it! It's the essence of the game that we are all playing here. Whether you're a cashflow or appreciation investor or short term or long term, we're all trying to balance risk tolerance with our ability to maximize/accelerate real estate accumulation. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Greer, SC · Member since 2013 · 548 posts · 271 votes
    7y

    @Robert C.

    If you go up enough in value, the math will be on your side. Leverage takes over and pushes your yeild up. It's not so hard to buy a larger property. Actually, there is less competition when you go big. Also, the banks seemed to like larger loan amounts.

  • Rental Property Investor · SF Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 49 posts · 54 votes
    7y

    I have some terrible roe in some of my places but I just consider it $ in the bank as they are safe A class properties in the Bay Area. Some commercial on the freeway with signage rights, plexes near desirable downtown cores, etc... Could I 1031 into better cash flowing areas in Cleveland or Indianapolis sure but that would be going from the penthouse to the outhouse and my money wouldn’t be nearly as safe. So, you need to consider the quality of the asset in your calculations as well as the cap rate.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
    7y

    @Jason Dillard, For my market (Peninsula, Bay Area), I would say that it was easy between 2010 and 2015. 2016 to present has been much harder (or perhaps I am more risk adverse due to what I see as downsides in the market). There are some additional tradeoffs to consider locally such as Prop 13. And banks are not lending the way they were even a couple years ago for MF.

    My sense though, based on all the recent complaints I read on here about low yield in other parts of the country, is that the rest of the country is starting to hit similar market conditions. That's a broad brush, I know - but in general I think people chasing more yield are finding that they have to tread more carefully lately.

  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Let me give two scenarios:  I purchased a duplex for $320,000 in 2007.  I just sold it this month, June 2019, for $320,000.  My gross rents are $1,800 /month and net $1,000 a month.  Would you KEEP it or SELL it?

    Next, I just sold a house for $642,000 and I was getting $1,800/month rent for it.  Would you KEEP it or SELL it?  If you want to know the appreciation potential, records show I could have gotten $650,000 for it in 2018, therefore it appears the market has flattened out.

    Would you TRADE a 2-3% Cap Rate for a 5-6% Cap rate when you are looking mainly for Retirement Cash Flow?

  • Real Estate Agent · Cupertino, CA · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Majority buy for life time. Pass on to heirs. Most rarely raise rent or charge at market price. They stay put and do not move or asking for service.

    A friend his uncle bought a Pacific Ocean viewing property for 250K 3500 sf on 17 Mile Drive.  So if it vacant what does it mean to someone who paid off and cared about cap rates? He will be paying $4000/ mo on property today.

  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Sam, I do not understand your answer. This site is for investing in real estate. If that property is vacant, then the owner has NO CASH FLOW. I do not understand your point?

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