Best LT markets in 2023 for total return (COC, equity, and appreciation) w/ 25% down

Best LT markets in 2023 for total return (COC, equity, and appreciation) w/ 25% down

Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 30 votes

This post is for LONG TERM BUY AND HOLD RESIDENTIAL REAL ESTATE INVESTMENTS.

First, let's bench mark the range of options so we can put in context any potential opportunity:

 - CDs and some savings accounts are back to paying 4%.  That's for zero risk.

 - Inflation-adjusted Treasury Bills pay 6%+, for almost zero risk, but are capped at $10k per person.

 - Most residential investment properties sell for a 5.5 to 6% cap rate, so for a cash buyer, 6% is a fairly easy return to obtain for newer properties with very low risk.

- Equities offer 7-9%, but with arguably higher risk and fewer tax benefits; plus this is BP, so I'll focus on RE as the asset class to discuss (rather than say talk about buying a business on Flippa or BizBuySell for a 3x multiple).

- Flips and BRRR can generate larger returns, but they aren't passive so I'll leave those opportunities to others to discuss.

- STR is a changing playing field and is not passive, and carries more risk, so I'll leave that one to other forums as well.

Okay, on to business.  Let's assume that since it's easy to get 6% return on cash invested, with almost no risk, that's the bare minimum we should consider for our return for any investment (real estate or otherwise).  Now let's assume someone is trying to figure out how to invest $50,000 to $300,000 in an optimal way, to maximize the risk-adjusted return.  If you're going to accept more risk, you must receive more than 6% return.

What are the top cities people are able to find a total return of say, at least 15% (adding up cash on cash, equity build up, and a very conservative estimate for appreciation - I use 2%)?  I'm looking for new markets.  Most investment loan rates are around 7-8% and require 20-25% down, so let's use those assumptions.  Let's further only look at A and B neighborhoods since the risk profile of a C or D neighborhood are so different, one would need substantially more gain to justify the extra risk (i.e. one eviction can wipe out 1-2 years of gains, and so forth).

A few things I'm seeing:

- Baltimore: With cap rates at 8% or higher for rehabbed townhomes, you can still get close to the one percent rule and still generate 18% total returns.  However, you'll have to accept some risk given the issues of crime and unemployment in the city.  

 - Norada, Rent to Retirement and Real Wealth Network are still offering up some good terms, but there are strings attached.  I like these companies, but have had some issues with their local partners (PMs who overcharge, new construction with unfavorable and one-sided contracts, a seller who backed out of a deal etc.).  Their markets and properties are definitely worth a look, but think it through.

 - I can not get numbers to work in my favorite markets any more: DC, Charlotte, Raleigh, Austin, Phoenix, Portland etc.  I'm finding that I have to go to small towns that I had not heard of, and look for less expensive deals, to get anything to work.  Havelock, NC  or Texarkana, TX anyone?  I just saw a few lovely properties under $200,000 that would cash flow and generate nice returns for a new investor.  

 - For these types of markets, big long term appreciation will likely not be there, so it does depend on on what you're looking for: income replacement or wealth building that's not liquid.  I like hybrid approaches with a little of both.

- Oklahoma City: still offering 7.5 to 8% cap rates in the better neighborhoods and the homes still pencil out with total returns of 18% or more.

- Spartanburg, SC: still a few deals there, but for older homes.  Hard to gauge the additional risk of some of these properties for no additional gain.  Higher tax burden for investors as well that could wreck your pro-forma if you're using numbers from Zillow, Realtor.com etc.

- Lincolnton, NC: has cheap lots and some new construction duplexes that still cash flow.  Closer to 14% I believe for the total return.

Where are other people finding deals?  Would welcome some fresh ideas and new markets.

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Realtor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2023 · 245 posts · 231 votes
3y

Im local to Charlotte and also practice in SC. I’m a BIG fan of the potential equity growth in this market. There’s so much happening in our outer markets and the migration rate is high.

I’m also a big fan of Spartanburg, Greenville and Columbia SC. Though the taxes are a bit of a burden on investors, it helps to keep investment competition low and rentals demand high. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Realtor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2023 · 245 posts · 231 votes
    3y

    Im local to Charlotte and also practice in SC. I’m a BIG fan of the potential equity growth in this market. There’s so much happening in our outer markets and the migration rate is high.

    I’m also a big fan of Spartanburg, Greenville and Columbia SC. Though the taxes are a bit of a burden on investors, it helps to keep investment competition low and rentals demand high. 

  • Pat LulewiczBusiness Member
    Realtor · Raleigh NC and Greensboro, NC · Member since 2019 · 391 posts · 392 votes
    3y

    If we're just talking "cap rate" on a SFH investment, Greensboro, High Point and Winston Salem (collectively the Triad) of North Carolina can hit your 8 cap number with the components you outlined. Furthermore, a cap rate by nature won't have an "equity buildup" (I'm assuming you're referring to principal paydown for this) component since it's an all-cash metric.

    I think this question, and many like it, will miss the boat on RE investing though and the major benefits of it...all of those other investment vehicles (in their most basic form) don't allow you to get 70%-85% leverage on your invested capital. Furthermore, if you did get debt on your shares of Amazon, it won't have the ability for somebody else to pay off that leverage via rent payments. In fact, a margin call can sink you because you have no control over the underlying asset as you do with RE. Real estate also allows you to do a cash-out refinance once you have enough equity in the property to literally be given a tax-free payout as an "attaboy" for doing a good job for the communities you serve.

    Finally - completely discounts the value of depreciation and what makes most/all of that income tax free (if you're leveraged). You get cash flow along the way (yes shares pay dividends but nominal) and generally won't pay much or any tax on that. Depreciation, in many cases, can also be applied against your active income. Let's not forget why everyone got mad at Trump and demanded his tax returns...

  • Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 30 votes
    3y

    All really great points Pat.  Thanks for highlighting those markets.  Any specific neighborhoods you love (or avoid) in those three cities?

    Depreciation and leverage are indeed what gives real estate the edge over other asset classes in my opinion ( at the expense of liquidity and high transaction costs).  That’s why I don’t pay cash for most deals.  For newer investors - please keep in mind leverage works both ways.  If you are 90% leveraged in a market with dropping values, you’re in a tough spot if you overpay and if you don’t have sufficient reserves to account for an unexpected HVAC replacement or a tenant who stops paying/vacancy.  You could lose more than the capital you put in.


    Nonetheless, I find cap rates are still helpful to quickly sift and filter potential deals, even though I plan to take a loan.  If the starting cap rate is say, 4.5%, I usually don’t bother running the full pro forma because I know it probably won’t work, unless there is something special about the deal.

  • Rental Property Investor · Oregon City, OR · Member since 2020 · 324 posts · 780 votes
    3y

    Hey @Allen Tackett, lots of good things to unpack here. Personally, I've used Rent to Retirement for my rentals and have been happy with the experience. Have you done a deal with them?

    I spent a year doing BRRRR and still wasn't able to generate returns I was getting through turnkey. Granted, I'm no expert but I do have some experience having done this for a few years now. There's definitely possibilities to put together your own deals but it takes savvy and time. And I like to invest as passively as possible. I'd be happy to help you through the process more if you have questions I can help with.

    Ultimately, it seems like all the choices you have are good ones. What matters is that you're constantly investing. You don't need to hit home runs every at bat. 

  • Will FraserPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Salt Lake City & Oklahoma City · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    Allen, what is your background?  

  • Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 30 votes
    3y

    Hi Will Fraser,

    I have a busy day job; background in analytics.  I used to own a chain of coffeeshops and have bought and sold a few small businesses.  I have bought around a dozen investment properties over 15 years and consider myself fairly savvy with finance and deal-procurement.  Harder to use my old approach though with today’s interest rate environment so looking for fresh ideas and peer mentors to take my game to the next level.  Happy to help others as well!

  • Smokies / Greenville, SC · Member since 2021 · 129 posts · 146 votes
    3y

    Well thought out post @Allen Tackett

    I am very bullish on the Upstate of SC. I currently live there. Greenville and surrounding areas are among the fastest growing in the country and have solid fundamentals. We have BMW and a number of large international companies investing heavily here. Lots of expansion and commercial/industrial development so there will be a significant growth in demand for workers and people relocating to the area. Spartanburg is great but I would personally look more toward areas like Greer, Woodruff, and Duncan. 

    I don't have anything to gain from it but if you need some boots on the ground or recommendations I would be happy to help in any way there. Feel free to reach out.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2016 · 499 posts · 167 votes
    3y

    can you name a source for CD's paying 4%?

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Mack Lengel:

    Well thought out post @Allen Tackett

    I am very bullish on the Upstate of SC. I currently live there. Greenville and surrounding areas are among the fastest growing in the country and have solid fundamentals. We have BMW and a number of large international companies investing heavily here. Lots of expansion and commercial/industrial development so there will be a significant growth in demand for workers and people relocating to the area. Spartanburg is great but I would personally look more toward areas like Greer, Woodruff, and Duncan. 

    I don't have anything to gain from it but if you need some boots on the ground or recommendations I would be happy to help in any way there. Feel free to reach out.


     I second these comments.

    This is a very hot housing market and it is in the top 5 area of the country where people are relocating to.

  • Investor · Mt Pleasant, SC · Member since 2018 · 54 posts · 46 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jane S.:

    can you name a source for CD's paying 4%?


     Jane, you can buy US T bills in 3-12 month maturities between 4.79 and 5.02 yield

  • Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 30 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jane S.:

    can you name a source for CD's paying 4%?


     Wells Fargo and a dozen other banks and credit unions.  You can find them by googling "which CDs offer 4%".  

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    @Allen Tackett

    interesting post, but I think I'm still a little confused on what your question is.  can you clarify?

    you said correctly that flips and BRRRR are not passive, and so that's not what this post is about - so you're asking, what's a solid market with a lower median home price that offers cash flow on something turnkey that will beat risk free investments?

  • Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 30 votes
    3y

    Hi Nicholas,

    Regret any confusion.  You pretty much nailed it, but I’d clarify: 

    It doesn’t need to be turnkey - just long term buy and hold

    It is not enough to beat risk free investments, it needs to have a compelling risk-adjusted return.  I know lots of high return markets, but the risk is even higher than the extra return


    I’m curious where people are buying now for optimal risk-adjusted returns.  It seems like a variety of private equity funds are buying up so much inventory that many of the cities and neighborhoods that used to work - even at higher interest rates - have no inventory.  I’m still facing bidding wars lol. Just thought I’d see how other investors are handling this.  Thanks for your thoughts

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    @Allen Tackett

    totally agree with the challenges.  I'm handling it by BRRRRing to create equity =) 

  • Rental Property Investor · Green Bay, WI · Member since 2016 · 150 posts · 94 votes
    3y

    Very good post @Allen Tackett!  You are absolutely right that you currently can get risk free returns of well over 4% especially if you are willing to tie the money up for a couple of years.  Currently, 2 yr treasuries have yields of 4.66%.  While this is a good return, especially looking at recent history, you will be running behind if inflation continues to be high.  While the Fed will likely reduce inflation via their money tightening and rate increases, it will probably stay much higher than 4.66% so you will have less purchasing power in 2 years than you do now.  You could invest in stocks, but that is very risky currently.  You might be lucky enough to buy something that will appreciate faster than inflation, but you are at least as likely to grab a mix of stocks that will actually lose money in the near term.  You only need to look at yesterday's market (Tues Feb 21) to judge the current volatility of the stock market.

    Real estate investing offers predictable returns - your rents should continue to at least keep pace with inflations assuming you maintain the properties and do your diligence when selecting tenants.  The Midwest offers some great returns and also will be less likely to see decreases in asset values if interest rates continue to rise.

    Be careful in your analysis and I wouldn't plan for a great deal of appreciation at least in the next couple of years.  All the best in your investing future!!

  • Bay area, CA · Member since 2021 · 383 posts · 306 votes
    3y

    If you want pure passive investment, you can't go wrong with buying good turkey properties in Florida. That's what I do. 

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