Is the price unreasonable or am I unreasonable?

Is the price unreasonable or am I unreasonable?

Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 3 votes

Hello all,

I am very new to investment real estate. I am evaluating some of my first potential buys, but I could use some guidance to determine when a property is not a good deal because of the parameters of the property or when it is not a good deal because I am expecting to have my cake and eat it too. 

Here are some details. The property sale price is $450,000. I was originally told that each unit was renting at $750. While researching it, the rent for the units have increased to $850. I currently have an apartment that is much nicer in a better part of town for $1050, so I feel like $850 is probably stretching this property. Two of the four units are being completely renovated due to a water heater blow out. The concept pictures of the renovated apartments do look VERY nice. In fact, nicer inside than my $1050 a month apartment, but still quite a bit smaller and in a part of town that is not as nice. Thus, my assumption is that $850 a month might be pushing it and it is possible I may see the rental price roll back to $750 especially if there is a downturn in the housing economy. Regardless, I will go with the optimistic $850 for the initial discussion.

Thus, total incoming rent = $3400 ($850*4)

Net operating income per month =$ 3400 / 2 = $1700 (Using the 50% rule here. My own estimations of the expenses came out to 42%. Please let me know your opinion of the 50% rule. The management company indicated that 35% was a good rule of thumb for expenses but that seems way too low after reading many posts about the 50% rule.

Financing - a 10% downpayment on an FHA loan, with 4.75% interest, and $268 of PMI each month for 132 payments. The monthly principal and interest payment is $2149.00.

$1700 NOI/month - $2149mortgage = -$449 (negative cashflow after I pay my mortgage)

-$449 - 268PMI = -$717 (negative cashflow with PMI)

From this perspective, the real-estate doesn't look like a good investment, although property depreciation and tax losses would offset some of these losses in the first few years. So where do I go from here? Is the seller's price unreasonable or am I unreasonable to expect a property to cashflow with a 10% downpayment?

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
7y

Well question 1 here is you said FHA loan. That indicates that you are looking at a 1-4 unit property that you plan to owner occupy.

So therefore things such as the expected rents and expected expenses will have zero to do with valuing the property. 1-4 unit properties are primarily values based on comparable sales.

Now id this is a 5+ unit, then you are looking at the wrong type of financing entirely.

Also, if you are using a low down payment, expecting cash flow isnt really something someone should expect.  When an investor buys a property, the assumption is its going to be at minimum 20% down, and typically more.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • North of Houston · Member since 2018 · 350 posts · 181 votes
    7y

    I know where I am at , the nicer smaller stuff caps around 9-10%+, more ghetto type even higher. I don't know a whole  lot about your specific market but at 450K ? it could fetch that price but seems like its not play for cashflow. When buying (really I build them) newish A+ properties, for every 100,000 spent on purchase (or building), it gets me 900-1000 a month in rents. However, in Texas, we got horribly high property taxes and insurance but that is where my gross income is at on small stuff. And if some water heaters are blowing out, what out for the other water heaters

  • Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    @Maurice D. - Thanks I had done some of those things, but I do like your perspective on "paying yourself" for management. I do not plan to manage the property myself, but that mentality would be really wise for someone whoo is planning to do that. I have a busy career and I do not want a lot of other things to address. Thus, I will be hiring out and need to plan for that. I realize that will eat into much of the potential earnings but less earnings that are passive are better than no earnings.  

  • Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    @Todd Dexheimer  haha. I'll hold that check for now.

  • Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Thanks all. I think that we have sufficiently addressed that the price is too high for this property and that this one is dead in the water unless the seller will come down about $100K. They will not, because someone in the community will purchase this property and quickly, but likely someone who has much much more to put down as a downpayment. I will let you know if the seller comes way down on the prices. 

  • Real Estate Investor · West Linn, OR · Member since 2017 · 136 posts · 63 votes
    7y

    @Greg Callan this seems like a pretty standard price for Utah now, unless you are in a non metro area. You are not going to find anything at 1% without some sort of intense marketing strategy, also as an FYI it has been over a year since I have seen a wholesale deal that beats the 1% rule. That being said I find it impossible to believe you will spend $1,500 a month (roughly) on maintenance. But hey i dont think there is anything wrong with not buying for now...

  • Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    @Scott Bowles - Thanks for the information. I am new to Utah (up in   Logan) so I do not know the market that well. Still want to learn more about how the market here works. So I am open to your suggestions and feedback.

    I agree that it will be impossible to find anything bringing in 1%. 

    I would be happy to have your opinion on a more realistic estimate of expenses. Here are my estimates, but I am happy to hear if you think some of them are inaccurate. Moreover, I could use some modeling of the questions that one might ask to determine if these numbers are too high or too low. I think the most flexibility could be with Cap-ex improvements, maintenance, and vacancy, but I could be wrong.

    Management = 10% = $340 per month

    Exterior work (lawn, snow) = $100 per month

    Property taxes = $221 per month 

    Insurance = (I need an actual quote) Let's say $125 per month

    Cap-ex improvements = ??? I could use help, I've seen others list 5% here so 170$ per month? 

    Vacancy at 5% = $170 per month

    Maintenance = 1% of property value per year = $375 per month

    Total = $1501 or 44% of the incoming rent.

  • Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    This is one reason why I stay away from 2-4 units. The pricing is not based on income the property produces so in more expensive areas they dont cash flow. 

  • Real Estate Investor · West Linn, OR · Member since 2017 · 136 posts · 63 votes
    7y

    @Greg Callan Yeah that does look pretty reasonable you could manipulate it a bit by doing basic maintenance and self managing. But that is very tight...we just bought a very similar property but were doing a 1031 with considerably more capital...I dont know everyone says dont wait for a market shift to buy but i dont see how it makes sense to keep investing unless you have a ton of capital...

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y

    I want to look at it from a different angle . First ,how long has it been on the market ? If it was a good deal it would have been under contract within a week . Second , are there many 4 plexes in your area ? What are they selling for ?  Do your research , find out what they paid for it , when they bought it , how much they owe on it , why they are selling it . Then make a offer lower that what you want to buy it for, know your max .  

    Then start negotiations 

  • Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    @Scott Bowles Thanks for the feedback on estimated expenses. 

  • Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    @Matthew Paul - I like your other perspectives. It's something I often think about. Why has no one else jumped. In the case of this property, I actually learned about the property before it is on the market. The real-estate agent with whom I am working knows the owner and that it is being renovated. So technically, it is not on the market at this time. There are many 4 plexes near the one in this discussion, but no other 4 plexes for sale at this time. Another one that did sell a few weeks ago had a lower cap rate and sold within 2 days. However, I am guessing that buyer had a different strategy or maybe even multiple properties to play a different angle. Thanks for the suggestions. I am still researching it a bit as a way to continue learning about investment real-estate and I will present some data to the seller with an offer that would make it work for me, but I think it will have to be a pass on this one.

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