Installation of Ring doorbells and their legal/privacy concerns

[Stephen Swiatek]

Want to see if anyone has decided to move forward with installation of Ring doorbells at their apartment communities? And if so, did you have to mitigate any legal/privacy concerns for the other residents?

The doorbells/video would be focused on the outside personal entrances of each unit but also the parking lots which would also capture the coming and going of the other residents in the community.

Thank you for  your input!

Stephen

[Dan Handford]

@Stephen Swiatek None of our properties have the ring doorbells yet. Mainly because of the privacy issues being raised by the current tenants. The consensus in our communities is that it would violate their privacy since it would be able to track their daily activities. 

I am not opposed to it. Rather I am an advocate for it since I believe it could reduce crime as well as theft from packages. In addition, that type of technology allows the PM to keep track of violations such as pets without permission as well as too many people staying in a unit. 

Artificial intelligence will take over sooner rather than later so we need to start making plans.

[Stephen Swiatek]

@Dan Handford Great points you make and I can also see the resident’s side as well. I believe we are in the transition period where not enough AI has become commonplace yet to where most of the population is OK with having the possibility of their movements in and out of their apartments monitored by others. Still not quite sure where this falls in the legality side but do believe we are headed in the direction of more monitoring and not less and with this this type of technology and others like it will become acceptable over time...not saying I’m completely for it as I tend to like my privacy but I can see the benefits too.

[Ken Breeze]

Great subject @Stephen Swiatek, this is a can of worms or a Pandora's Box privacy topic. Love it ;-) Forgive me for going a bit deeper on this one ;-) but I believe it's relevant and important enough for us to divulge even into a separate reaaaaaal long discussion thread. That said...

For anyone interested, there are huge concerns from the European perspective: devices like Ring are prohibited in the EU. There is no general video or audio surveillance allowed on the continent of 440 million citizens which represent a huge market. And this is just the beginning. There will be a much bigger challenge coming our way with the challenges of surveillance, AI, IoT and privacy in the years to come.

We are all bias towards our agenda, as am I, due to our backgrounds and past experiences. Having grown up as the generation after the so-called "Lost Generation" of post-WWII Germany, one might want to explore why Europeans and other countries have a different stance on privacy issues. 

We've seen the dark side. With huge and unstoppable government and private entities silently conquering and controlling our lives, reading the words I write and as you read them, delivering food and anything to our doorsteps with drones or driverless cars, gathering more and more information on your every secret, we might want to think twice before we continue to let Big Brother (Aldous Huxley anyone) into our backyards, pools, and bedrooms to watch and record our every move - forever. 

There's a great and concerning movie from 1970 named  "Colossus - The Forbidden Project" that foreshadowed what we have let happen all in the name of convenience. But that's more fuel for another thread. This stuff goes real deep. To the core. It's not just a doorbell with a camera.

It's all about perspective -  How about setting up and leading a successful neighborhood watch? You may want to leave some privacy to your tenants - that builds more trust than cameras and spy software. People will do bad - with or without cameras because we are humans. BTW, fake cameras, signs, and decals are a great deterrent, are way cheaper and protect your customer's privacy. 

But there are also alternatives:

• Install a home security system.
• Get a dog.
• Landscape wisely.
• Put up motion detecting outdoor lights.
• Install window and door alarms.
• Put in smarter locks.
• Install fake security cameras.
• Look like you’re home.

The better question is: how does your tenant feel about it? Why not run an online survey via email or SMS, engage your tenants and ask them if they would mind cameras and a ring doorbell system. They may see benefits for themselves: living in a more secure neighborhood or voice concerns and suggestions. Get them on your side, involve them, empower your community and let them decide.

[Caleb Heimsoth]

As someone who’s a tenant as well as a landlord I can tell you if my landlord installed these, the first thing I would do is

1. Remove it

2. Cover the camera with something that would not be easy to get off.

With all the privacy issues Facebook went through recently this is the last thing I want.

[Guy Gimenez]

There is no expectation of privacy in a public place. 

[Caleb Heimsoth]

Guy Gimenez that may be the case but we’re not talking like a security camera we’re talking about a doorbell that’s also a camera. You’d be videoed each time you enter or leave.

If I didn’t uninstall that, I’d just cover it with something. If the landlord uncovered it, I’d just uninstall it and tell them to take it out of my deposit.

I can’t imagine this working well at a large apartment complex like where I live. Maybe at smaller single family homes but not in apartments

[Guy Gimenez]

@Caleb Heimsoth

There are cameras all around us that watch our every movement. Unless the front door of an apartment must be accessed via gate, which may indicate it is not a "public place" (which is believe doesn't pass the smell test) etc., the law does not change and it's been settled by the Supremes for decades. 

[Stephen Swiatek]

Appreciate all the discussion around this topic...certainly are some differing and charged opinions on this one.

@Ken Breeze you have some very good points noted above as well as some of the freedoms we give up in allowing this type of technology to expand within our communities. Having the EU ban these devices makes me think even longer at deploying these devices throughout our properties. I know you mentioned video or audio surveillance isn't allowed but if I remember correctly when I was over there it seemed a lot of the streets have governmental surveillance already in place so maybe it's just that they don't want the public to be able to surveil one another.

@Caleb Heimsoth I certainly understand your hesitation with the implementation of these devices around the apartments you live in...if I lived in an apartment I would have these same concerns for my privacy as well. I know it seems like nothing out in public is private anymore but allowing more of it to be concentrated in a single place just allows more "eyes" to capture every moment. 

@Guy Gimenez you are right about there not being any privacy in a public place but as I mentioned above to Caleb by placing more of these devices around it definitely adds to the overall amount of collected data for a specific place. But, with this said, it seems like our society is more and more comfortable with having this type of surveillance and so I'm sure we will continue to see more and more of this type of technology being implemented. 

BTW...my OP was based on one of our residents asking to install this on the building for their own surveillance and of their entrance and vehicle just out their door...I wasn't sure what the prevailing consensus would be and I don't we have one yet :) I decided to tell her to hold off for now citing privacy concerns for the residents around her.

[Guy Gimenez]

@Stephen Swiatek

Guess it could work both ways. Refusing to allow such a device after a tenant's request for same could open the landlord to potential liability (should something a break-in, assault, etc. occur) because you're preventing the tenant from adding a level of protection that is allowed by law and cannot reasonably be considered an invasion of anyone's privacy since that expectation has already been addressed by the highest court in the land.  

[John Hastie]

This is an interesting topic.

I have a Ring Doorbell in my vacation rental property. I use it from time to time as well. It's a house in a gated community and the doorbell shows a courtyard area. I wanted to know when Amazon parcels get delivered and when guests check in.  I have a sticker up...can't even remember what it says.  In any case, my property is rented this Labor weekend. It's advertised as "No pets allowed" and guess what I saw on the Ring ....a dog.

My property is with a property manager and they are dealing with that right now.