Here's a Puzzle for Everyone, see who can figure it out

Here's a Puzzle for Everyone, see who can figure it out

Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 94 posts · 13 votes

So we have a ten unit complex and have owned it for four years.  It's a great solid building but the main issue has always come down to water usage.  In the last two years, during the same winter months of Nov/dec/jan water bills and "usage" have doubled, EVEN WITH less tenants in the building.  

In our area, we are billing quarterly and here is the breakdown of usage in DCF's per month

2014

Nov - 765

Dec - 1110

Jan (2015) - 1135

2015

Nov - 690

Dec - 1050

Jan -1085

2016

Aug -395

Sept - 355

Oct - 195

Nov - 820

Dec - 985

Jan - 875

and keep in mind for 2016 out of ten units, three were empty from Sept on.

We have gas boiler heat and of course water heaters (two in this building).

In August of 2016 we actually installed water saving devices in every units toilet, shower, sinks, etc.  

We don't have any major leaks because the water meter outside doesn't move or spin after sitting still for minutes at a time.  There is no leak between the meter and the building due to the same thing mentioned above, no spinning meter.  

Now the kicker is we have two other building right next to this one and during the winter months, usage goes down! 

If 1 ccf (which is 10 dcf's) = 748 gallon of water, that means in the three winter months ten units are using 200,000 gallons of water in three months or 6,700 gallons of water per unit per month versus a normal 3000 gallons a month, which is still high for one bedroom units.  

So with no leaks turning the meter, what possibly could be causing the water "usage" to be so high during the winter months only?  There has to be water passing the windmill type water meter in order for it to turn correct?  And this is the radio type meter that is read from the street.  

I just checked the meter myself as today 2/15/17 is the next reading date and it's only showing for the last 35 days 184 dcf's or 18.4 ccf's or 13,400 gallons of water usuage.  And this is for a total of five units being occupied in the last month for 2,600 gallons per unit.  

The boiler is brand new from two years ago and is an 85% efficient boiler and the water heaters are three years old.  There is one coin laundry washing machine.  

Thoughts or ideas?

Thanks,

Christian

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Wholesaler · King Of Prussia, PA · Member since 2016 · 4 posts · 3 votes
9y

Multiple choice:

A. tenants are bringing over friends and family to shower, use laundry etc.

B. the water-saving devices or something is not connected correctly and is leaking

C. the Russians hacked your water line

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Do you have a {sub}meter on the make-up system for the boiler ... or anyway of gauging how much makeup water it is consuming?

    The boiler may be new, but if your hydronic system has a leak in it, it will be making-up water and this  extra consumption would correspond with the heating season.

    Additionally, are the DHW lines insulated?  How long are the runs from the common storage tanks to the units?  Are the in-line heaters in the units or does the system include circulation?

  • Real Estate Professional · Redmond, WA · Member since 2015 · 67 posts · 47 votes
    9y

    Is it possible this building is insulated differently than the other?  Maybe, in order to get warm water to the sink or shower, the tenants in this building have to run water longer (than the other building)?  Is there a circulating pump in the other units?

  • Wholesaler · King Of Prussia, PA · Member since 2016 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    Multiple choice:

    A. tenants are bringing over friends and family to shower, use laundry etc.

    B. the water-saving devices or something is not connected correctly and is leaking

    C. the Russians hacked your water line

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 94 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    No submeter system on the boiler so no way to tell currently on the makeup water.  I do not believe the DHW lines are insulated but honestly haven't looked at them closely and the building is built like a mirror with three total stories (lower level with two units) and four on the other two floors.  No in-line heaters, baseboard boiler heat for the rooms.  I looked at the other years and none of the other years have any of this dramatic change.  

    The water saving devices are working correctly or August, Sept, October usage would have been much higher than previous years, which it wasn't.  Aside from actual leaks we had years ago, the usage has been normal until the last couple years during mainly the winter months.  

    We are going to have a boiler company come by to check everything out and I will ask them about the makeup water thought.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 94 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    Actually, could be the Russians...totally didn't think about that.  

  • Real Estate Agent · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 293 posts · 109 votes
    9y
    I'm kind of leaning towards the boiler system being faulty as well. I'm curious to see what is causing this issue.
  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 94 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    Okay, so had the entire boiler system checked out and nothing is showing as weird.  And for reference, it's a Dunkirk DXL-170.   It's working perfectly, no leaks, expansion tank is fine, etc.  When we are talking close to 30,000 extra gallons of water every month for three "winter" months and only six one bedroom units, this one has us stumped.  If there was that big a leak in the system, we would have walls falling apart/ceilings apart as the boiler lines run through the walls and ceilings AND that leak would be happen all the time from a water usage standpoint.  If the water meter outside was faulty, it wouldn't just spin like a top unless something is moving past it and there's no leaks between the main and the building.  So if we aren't seeing major water leaks in the building or walls and the pipes are not underground.  

    Thoughts?

  • Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 293 posts · 175 votes
    9y

    5,000 gallons of EXTRA water per 1 bedroom apartment per month?! Omg. I have really nothing to add but I am interested to see if you figure it out.

  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Have the tenants themselves changed in 3 years?

    I once had a tenant that felt in the winter they needed to leave a drip so it didn't freeze (from their old place as a kid and the thought process stayed when they moved). Well their idea of a "drip" and my idea of a "stream".... coupled with the fact that they felt each faucet had to have it to be safe. They only did it when they left or at night which would explain why you don't see it during the day spin.

    Also check for the flapper on the toilets in case it is just running and running (although why it doesn't happen in the summer would not make sense.

    Good luck!

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