Capex vs Opex when looking at a T12

Capex vs Opex when looking at a T12

Rental Property Investor · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 726 votes

I've been thinking about making the jump to larger apartment complexes and reviewing a lot of T12s to understand them. One thing I find very misleading is that they seem to throw a lot of things into Capex, the 9400 series of accounts that I would consider Operational Expenses because they reoccur fairly often. For instance a lot of the expenses for turning apartments such as replacing carpet, painting and repairs. On my properties I always count those as operational because they tend to happen every few years.

Also, they have new appliances in Capex which makes sense to me but that tends to be an on going thing in older apartments so it seems like something needs to be reserved out of the NOI for that. Not to mention reserves for roofs, paving, etc.

I tend to see a lot of T12s that show Opex as 50-60% of Gross rents then they show NOI of 50-40% and THEN they show 20% spent on CAPEX some of which looks ongoing to me.

So my question is this, for folks that evaluate a lot of T12s, do you subtract a portion of Capex as reserves from the NOI before applying cap rate? For instance if they show 50% operating would you subtract another 10% for reserves from the NOI before applying cap rate? On many of the ones I look at doing so makes them only look ok because they have high occupancy. Drop it a little and they would be unprofitable.

Also, when I acquire a new property I find that I get a larger number of turns at first and of course the units need rehabbed. Do you budget higher capex in the first 6 months? 

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Joel OwensBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
10y

Hi Jeff,

Back in 2008,2009,2010 you could find class A to B areas and B buildings for a 9 cap.

The really bad areas like a 20 cap.

Fast forward to today and I see syndicators and regular buyers looking at stuff in the real crap hole areas of GA for a 8 to 9 cap. The pro-forma's once you properly underwrite are a 7 cap at best.

The sellers are selling to the uninformed. The tenant base and economy in these areas in boom times are stable but when any blip happens the chaos comes fast. The way I look at it many of these renters in C areas live hand to mouth. When the economy is good they pick up extra hours at work and have 3 to 5,000 extra a year to go eat out, vacation,etc. When the economy starts dipping they are over leveraged on bad debt and their whole world falls apart. Those places the tenants stop paying and mass evictions happen.

Anyone wants to know about an area call or go talk to local hard money lenders. Lot's of them are old school seasoned investors with decades of experience. They have lived it and been through it and now just loan out their cash instead of being active anymore.

I just do not like trashy or average areas no matter what the return. I would like an older building in a nice area because it has redevelopment potential.

I don't want headache for return so I stay out of those areas.

Another investor e-mailed me a prospectus from a syndicator the other day and of course it was rosy. I looked up the crime map and it was pretty bad not just around the property but the area. I told the investor if you put money into that deal you could end up taking a loss or putting more money down the endless rabbit hole never to get it back. 

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  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Capex is not opex and is not a part of NOI by definition. Budget for your anticipated needs.

    Direct capitalization is not the best valuation method for multis but if you are going to use it you would calculate NOI the exact same way as the comps.

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 726 votes
    10y

    Ok I read my post again and it's not even clear to me exactly what I'm asking so here's an example. These are made-up numbers but are based roughly on a T12 I just evaluated.

    Gross annual rent: $1,000,000

    Operating Expense: $500,000

    NOI: $500,000

    Purchase price at 8 cap: $6,250,000

    Down payment: $1,250,000

    Financed: $5,000,000 - 20 year loan at 5%

    So my first year budget goes like this:

    NOI: $500,000

    Capex (If my experience is the same): $200,000

    Interest expense: $250,000

    Net Income: $50,000

    And the principle payments would be $145,000

    So the first year I'm out of pocket $95,000...

    What am I not understanding or is this just a bad deal?

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    1.  Where are you getting the cap rate?

    2.  What are you spending $200,000 on?  Are you planning on it being a one time expense to get the property to your standard? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 726 votes
    10y

    1. Just based on what I hear about the market in the Southeast. 

    2. That's really the nugget of my question. That's what the current owner spent last year on capex. But a lot of it looks to me like items I would expect on an ongoing basis and might even be higher my first year due to higher turnover with a new owner.

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jeff Kehl:

    do you subtract a portion of Capex as reserves from the NOI before applying cap rate? For instance if they show 50% operating would you subtract another 10% for reserves from the NOI before applying cap rate?

    Rereading I see the above . CapEx is a below the line adjustment. Including capex in the NOI and then capitalizing it would overstate its value. If there is immediate Capex needed at the time of purchase you would value the NOI at the market cap rate and then subtract from the market value the capex to get your offer price. Paint and carpets could be considered repair and maintenance (opex) if the complex is large enough that they repaint and carpet a known number of units a year. The thing is that in selecting a cap rate comp you would want to know that they treated "consistent paint and carpet" in the same manner. The difference between classifying between opex and capex can be a regional thing.

  • Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2014 · 5 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    I always calculate the Nominal Cap Rate (this is what most people refer to when discussing Cap Rates, NOI/Purchase Price)) but also the Economic Cap Rate (which includes Cap Ex expenses). If you see Cap Ex expenses on a T12 that exceed 5-10% of the Net Rental Income, then something is going on. Either the Seller has recently updated the property with true capital expenses (e.g., cabinets, windows, HVAC, permanent flooring, exterior painting, etc) or the Seller is shifting O&M into cap ex. You should ask to see details of the Cap Ex. Good luck,

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 726 votes
    10y

    @Account Closed Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I can take the detail of the capex and use that to project a normal annual capex for the buget. Also makes sense why that number would vary widely. A brand new building or one rehabbed just before purchase should theoretically have very little capex the first year. On an older building you wouldn't really know without evaluating each system independently to determine effective age and projecting replacement. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Don't listen to Bob - he spends all day in the sun lol

    Yes - your intuition is correct. They deliberately throw items which should be OpEx into CapEx. Why - because Opex tees up the NOI, and the valuation is capitalized upon that NOI. Right?

    It's the "can we find an idiot" game. You are not that idiot :)

    You realize that those items which must be inside the OpEx need to be inside the OpEx. So, the answer you are looking for is this:

    Underwriting is much less about T12,24,36 or any other trailing number, and much more about underwriting to your estimates of future performance. There are averages which exist, which you can adjust, discount, or inflate based on what you see at the property.

    Makes sense, Jeff?

  • Lender · Dallas, TX · Member since 2015 · 283 posts · 128 votes
    10y

    I whole heartly agree with Ben. assuming that you do most the deferred maintenance when you acquire the property, then Capex is something that you can budget over the next few years with the exception of unexpected repairs. Items like roof, parking lot, exterior maintenance are easy to plan for, HCAV and plumbing usually are surprises but old items should be accounted for. Lastly, tenant/unit related items, while maybe from an IRS pov are capex, carpets, counters, appliances, etc. are always needing repair and replacement. The more units you have, the more this number becomes apparent.

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 726 votes
    10y

    @Ben Leybovich @Account Closed Thanks very much , I'm getting it. I just went through the T12 of a very large Class A property that is only 5 years old to see how it is different. They report Capex of less than1% of rents and looking through it further 2/3 of the capex is for new carpet!

    I can see where underwriting these things is a bit more of an art than a science.

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jeff Kehl:

    @Ben Leybovich @Account Closed Thanks very much , I'm getting it. I just went through the T12 of a very large Class A property that is only 5 years old to see how it is different. They report Capex of less than1% of rents and looking through it further 2/3 of the capex is for new carpet!

    I can see where underwriting these things is a bit more of an art than a science.

     You are getting it indeed - this is an art!

  • Kent, OH · Member since 2015 · 63 posts · 7 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

    Don't listen to Bob - he spends all day in the sun lol

    Yes - your intuition is correct. They deliberately throw items which should be OpEx into CapEx. Why - because Opex tees up the NOI, and the valuation is capitalized upon that NOI. Right?

    It's the "can we find an idiot" game. You are not that idiot :)

    You realize that those items which must be inside the OpEx need to be inside the OpEx. So, the answer you are looking for is this:

    Underwriting is much less about T12,24,36 or any other trailing number, and much more about underwriting to your estimates of future performance. There are averages which exist, which you can adjust, discount, or inflate based on what you see at the property.

    Makes sense, Jeff?

     Just curious, where can you learn these averages as a new investor? It all makes sense, but I have no experience to know these averages. I am sure every market will be slightly different. 

    I have been using the T12,24... to get my averages of the expenses... and trying to adjust based off what I think is closer to reality when I think they are manipulating the numbers. That seems to work at least for the utility costs in Ohio I would think. I just take the highest number from all the years I'm given.

    A building I just checked out, the repairs for the last 3 years were ... ( 300$ ) lol, he said he would have to go check his receipts. The building is very old, but its actually in pretty good condition and has had a lot of work done recently. I kind of wonder what I should be estimating here for turnover and repair costs for unit. Besides maybe installing better toilets and faucets I dont think I would be doing much to the units. He has owned it for an extremely long time, and just did the windows and the roof recently.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    Just remember sellers will justify and come up with all kinds of reasons to explain away the fuzzy numbers. Then after closing they are nowhere to be found...........  : )

    Multifamily in a lot of markets now are just looking for sucker buyers. Just make sure if you overpay you can hold on through the next downturn before you come up for air again.

    First 5 years of a brand new asset and the next 5 years are different.

    There are different expenses variables for a property going through a life cycle.

    Once we reviewed a 70 unit property for a client. The seller was touting 35% opex. He owned the property brand new for 10 years. The capex for yours 11-20 my client would own for has a very different cost structure. Needless to see we didn't buy that one. Seller was looking for a sucker to sell a picture for the next 10 year projections to get his price.

  • Real Estate Investor · Wadsworth, OH · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Jeff,

    When we look to purchase an Apt complex in an area that we are not already very knowledgeable about, we always choose the management company first. Once I start underwriting potential deals (based off the same t-12 rent roll etc, info you have) and I find one that looks promising I have the management company do their own underwrite based on how they will actually operate the asset. Then we compare numbers. The mgmt company is invaluable when it comes to knowing the local market. Once we get to the LOI stage I pretty much know what the asset will operate at as far as income and expenses go. The owners numbers are a good starting point to see if the asset is worth an offer but the offer we make will be based on how our numbers look going forward, not the previous years.

  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 408 posts · 209 votes
    10y

    I might be a little too new for this thread, but can someone please explain what a T12 is? Thank you!

  • Andover, KS · Member since 2016 · 44 posts · 17 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Simcha Davidman:

    I might be a little too new for this thread, but can someone please explain what a T12 is? Thank you!

     Financials for the last 12 months.

  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 408 posts · 209 votes
    10y

    Brad, thank you very much for clarifying that.

  • Investor · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2015 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Simcha Davidman:

    Brad, thank you very much for clarifying that.

     I second Brad's comment. Just wanted to ad the it stands for Trailing 12 months. It's good to learn the lingo when trying to talk to pros.

  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 408 posts · 209 votes
    10y

    The T I figured from my equities investing.  But thanks for taking the time to help!

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 726 votes
    10y

    @Mark Kuster @Joel Owens thank you for the comments. I started looking at these things about a year ago for my own personal portfolio and they always looked pretty bad to me. But I'm going to go to a syndication course next month so I'm trying to spend some time analyzing them each day. I can't imagine how people syndicate these things, take money off the top and offer preferred return and still do well operationally unless they just luck out and catch rapidly rising rents/buy and resell passing on to the next fool.

    There is definitely some subtlety and lessons to be learned in them. I now see the appeal of newer Class A properties with low expenses and a plan to sell before you get into the real expenses.

    Also geography seems to play such a huge factor. A lot of the complexes I have been looking at recently are in the worst areas of Atlanta. They look like decent deals now but if the economy turns south again they could quickly be horrible. 

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    Hi Jeff,

    Back in 2008,2009,2010 you could find class A to B areas and B buildings for a 9 cap.

    The really bad areas like a 20 cap.

    Fast forward to today and I see syndicators and regular buyers looking at stuff in the real crap hole areas of GA for a 8 to 9 cap. The pro-forma's once you properly underwrite are a 7 cap at best.

    The sellers are selling to the uninformed. The tenant base and economy in these areas in boom times are stable but when any blip happens the chaos comes fast. The way I look at it many of these renters in C areas live hand to mouth. When the economy is good they pick up extra hours at work and have 3 to 5,000 extra a year to go eat out, vacation,etc. When the economy starts dipping they are over leveraged on bad debt and their whole world falls apart. Those places the tenants stop paying and mass evictions happen.

    Anyone wants to know about an area call or go talk to local hard money lenders. Lot's of them are old school seasoned investors with decades of experience. They have lived it and been through it and now just loan out their cash instead of being active anymore.

    I just do not like trashy or average areas no matter what the return. I would like an older building in a nice area because it has redevelopment potential.

    I don't want headache for return so I stay out of those areas.

    Another investor e-mailed me a prospectus from a syndicator the other day and of course it was rosy. I looked up the crime map and it was pretty bad not just around the property but the area. I told the investor if you put money into that deal you could end up taking a loss or putting more money down the endless rabbit hole never to get it back. 

  • Investor · Fort Walton Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 33 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Jeff Kehl glad you started this thread ... this explains fishy looking capex in some t-12s I've been analyzing recently.  I've also seen some t-12s where they'll list a section for capex and a section for capital improvements on the same t-12 for a given year.  Unless i'm missing something, capex and capital improvement mean the same thing to me... here's an example of what I'm referring to ... 

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