8-plex deal cash flows, but probably won't pass appraised value?

8-plex deal cash flows, but probably won't pass appraised value?

Roseville, MN · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 9 votes

Hello BP, I'm a new investor. I have been studying, reading, networking and building my education. I plan to flip, as well as long term SFR and MF. I have cash from recent sale of my last startup company. I've been working to make my first deal this spring, and hopefully a few more this year.

So, I found a seller of an 8-plex in a group of 4, this being the worst of them.  It is in a small town, with a huge factory, so there is extremely high demand for rentals, which will continue according to the city.  The current owner is considered unfavorable by most that I have spoken with at the city level.   Not a well run building, some issues with water, but nothing dastardly.

Here is the deal on the table, that I said I would do. No paperwork yet signed, but we were targeting a close date of June 1.  I'm using a local attorney for the purchase agreement.   He happens to be the city attorney.

8x 2BR, one building, built in 1971.  8x single car garage detached

rents at $650 ea, (in line, according to chamber of commerce)

Annual income $66000, includes extra fees for pets and cleaning fees, some laundry.

Expenses $42,639

Net Cash Flow $23,361

Purchase at $295,000

Down payment $73,750, Closing costs $4,000

Repair costs of $18,250, with another $5k needed in few years.

Using the BP rental analysis tool, I have accounted for monthly vacancy 5% ($275), Repairs and Capex $165, Misc $150, Management $432, Insurance $100, utils $614, taxes $404, P&I $1414. The local bank said if the building appraisal at $295k, they would finance 75% at 4.5% and 20 years.

So, Cash on Cash ROI at 24.33%, Purchase Cap Rate at $13.67%.

In my investigation, I noted from the county that the building next door changed hands 2 years ago, at $386k.   It is in much nicer condition, seems very well run.   The building next to that sold at the same time in the same deal.   HOWEVER, further digging shows that $386k bought BOTH buildings, so $193k each.   Whoa, good catch.

I have an attorney locally.  He feels the market was more of a buyers market at that time, and the sellers were ready to move.  However, the market probably hasn't moved that far.   My building has garages, the others don't, which is worth something. Not as well run tho.

My questions are;

  1. By cap rate, I couldn't buy anything close to this here in the Twin Cities, Minnesota.  Cash flow wise, it still makes sense to me.  Am I mistaken?
  2. My local attorney feels that this won't appraise at the value I need for the bank.  I'm unclear if commercial appraisal would look at Cap Rate, or comps, or probably both?  Any insight here is helpful.  I could pay all cash, but then lose opportunity for many more deals.

I don't feel I'm overestimating rent income, after talking with chamber. Possibly underestimating repair and operations, which would bring down CoC and Cap Rate.

My mind is telling me that I need to renegotiate the price, although have heard the seller say he has 2 or 3 other buyers interested.   I don't want to overpay, but $250 / door cash flow doesn't seem out of line.   

I owe the buyer a response of some form this week.

I'm out nothing other than the $1500 I have into the evaluation (structural eval, atty).

Feedback from any experienced investors is greatly appreciated!

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Appraiser · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 16 votes
10y

I obviously don't have all the info in front of me. But there seem to be a few things I think that may need tweeking. First off the appraisal for a property of over 4 units will be a commercial appraisal, not residential so the sales comparison approach is not the best way to determine value it will be determined by the income approach, cap rate, gross rental multiplier , etc. If it is a good deal the appraisal should tell you base on dollars not comparables. But knowing that 2 similar, better condition properties sold for under 200k less than 2 years ago should be a huge red flag. Price appreciation is much slower and much less in general in smaller towns. 

Now your $650 rent per unit does that have tenants paying all utilities, gas, electric, water/sewer, garbage, etc. Or is that actually a greater cost to you. You have a $614 monthly utility costs which comes out to about $80 per unit so I'm assuming something is paid by you. Vacancy rates are probably too low. Small towns can have much larger vacancy rates than larger metro areas. Especially if you are the worst property, you will be the last to be filled. I don't know the age and condition of the property but $18-$23k seems really really low for needed repairs and there will probably be other big ticket items needed well beyond your cap x budget. Siding, windows, roofing, heat systems, exterior, Interior painting, landscaping, parking lot, new appliances, etc. 

Insurance also seems quite low at $100 per month. Seems like it would be well over double that. 

Go talk to the owners of the other 8-plexes and see if they would be willing to share some actual costs with you as well. 

Get your numbers super tight, get

The offer under contract but if the property doesn't appraise close to what you offered run away. Good luck. 

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  • Appraiser · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    I obviously don't have all the info in front of me. But there seem to be a few things I think that may need tweeking. First off the appraisal for a property of over 4 units will be a commercial appraisal, not residential so the sales comparison approach is not the best way to determine value it will be determined by the income approach, cap rate, gross rental multiplier , etc. If it is a good deal the appraisal should tell you base on dollars not comparables. But knowing that 2 similar, better condition properties sold for under 200k less than 2 years ago should be a huge red flag. Price appreciation is much slower and much less in general in smaller towns. 

    Now your $650 rent per unit does that have tenants paying all utilities, gas, electric, water/sewer, garbage, etc. Or is that actually a greater cost to you. You have a $614 monthly utility costs which comes out to about $80 per unit so I'm assuming something is paid by you. Vacancy rates are probably too low. Small towns can have much larger vacancy rates than larger metro areas. Especially if you are the worst property, you will be the last to be filled. I don't know the age and condition of the property but $18-$23k seems really really low for needed repairs and there will probably be other big ticket items needed well beyond your cap x budget. Siding, windows, roofing, heat systems, exterior, Interior painting, landscaping, parking lot, new appliances, etc. 

    Insurance also seems quite low at $100 per month. Seems like it would be well over double that. 

    Go talk to the owners of the other 8-plexes and see if they would be willing to share some actual costs with you as well. 

    Get your numbers super tight, get

    The offer under contract but if the property doesn't appraise close to what you offered run away. Good luck. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Saint Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 951 votes
    10y

    Expenses seem rather high, are there any opportunities for savings on that end to improve the cash flow?  Is the owner paying all utilities?  Can anything be submetered?   

    Buying a property like this I would want a really big cap rate.  It sounds like form your description that the rate of this entire town hinges on this factory.  If the factory closes or moves then what happens to rental demand?   

  • Investor · Crystal, MN · Member since 2013 · 486 posts · 277 votes
    10y

    @Doug Thompson

    I looked at a similar building a few years ago west of Mankato, in a one factory town called Butterfield.  I was fortunate in that the handyman was there when I saw it.  What I saw were the tenants beating the living daylights out of that building.  The repairs and deferred maintenance were bad, but the caretaker was also not willing to do the caretaking any more.  The building had electric heat, and the windows were in rough shape.

    The biggest impediment is a one factory town.  Imagine yourself selling this in 10 years, how tough it will be to find a buyer.  Better to pay more in the metro than out in Southwestern MN.  

  • Investor · Simpsonville, SC · Member since 2013 · 184 posts · 71 votes
    10y

    @Doug Thompson

    The bank is interested in income. Comps are more relevant to residential 1-4 unit properties; I'm not saying they're not considered - just that sales comparison doesn't generally carry the same weight for commercial property. Cost and income carry more weight with properties like this one, and NOI is a key factor. I know you don't want to spend anymore money on this, but I think you need your own appraisal from an MAI. The appraisal is as important to deal structure as the engineer's report is to physical structure - and in fact the appraiser may want to review the engineer's report. You're probably looking at less than $2,500 for an appraisal for this type of property, but it will be money well spent. You'll learn about many things you don't even know you don't know about yet. It'll be delivered on a narrative report. Read the report thoroughly and ask the appraiser as many questions as you want. They love discussing their reports and will be flattered by the interest.

  • Lender · Elgin, IL · Member since 2015 · 47 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    Do not order an appraisal yourself.  A bank will not accept it an will need to order their own.  As someone who has financed deals like this, a bank will need at least 2 valuation methods.  The generally are sales comps and income.

  • Roseville, MN · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    @Beau Ryan thanks for your input.  This is a big red flag, especially the shock after thinking the comps were for a single bldg.  It isn't a deal killer, but certainly has given me pause.  The unit has a boiler system, so heat is on me, plus water and sewer.  Electric is the tenants.  I feel that I need to look closer to the expenses, but I'm not totally out of line with my est.

    @Patrick L. there won't be much room for improvement on the expenses, unless I keep the management myself.  Not impossible, but wanted to plan for having it managed.   As for the town and the factory, the company is old but very stable.  They have opened facilities in other parts of the region and also near the west coast.   I just cannot see this changing for a generation, altho they are now a publicly traded company, and anything can happen.  Still, roots run deep.  That is the first thing I considered.  They pull employees from 30 miles away.

    @David Moore I haven't found any multifamily with a cap rate north of 8 in the twin cities, but maybe I'm not looking well enough.   I think duplex/triplex would offer something closer.

    Mark and Joshua, I won't order an appraisal, but will look into getting a realtor to give me a competitive market analysis, like a BPO.  With it in hand, I think I am more likely to get a successful renegotiation.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 314 posts · 153 votes
    10y

    How well do you know the city? Every city official is going to say they're going to go up in population / rental demand / etc. 

    2nd: Why are you looking at cashflow per door on a commercial deal? 

    What's market cap for apartment buildings in that area? If market cap is 15% you're overpaying by buying at 13.7% cap. If market is 10% you're getting a decent deal for the market, though you'll have to estimate if the discount on cap rate is worth buying the worst property around.

  • Investor · Crystal, MN · Member since 2013 · 486 posts · 277 votes
    10y

    @Doug Thompson

    I understand your concern on hitting a good cap number.  I find that sellers don't understand the profitability of their building should be directly correlated to the price they sell at.

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Appraiser and underwriter will be interested in the NOI and the DSCR, and not even look at the Cap Rate. I see expenses being too high and that smells of deferred maintenance to me.

    The FMR for the area/ neighborhood will tell you if there's room for income improvement.

  • Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2016 · 477 posts · 426 votes
    10y

    @Doug Thompson One (basic) thing I'll note (everyone else here is way smarter than me on the rest of this stuff):

    You've got vacancy at 5% (which is low, for a rougher building) but Repairs and CapEx combined at 3%? For a beat up old building that allows pets and has laundry I'd put it at more like 8% each. 

    But I'm a pessimist too - maybe I'm way off on this. 

  • Roseville, MN · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    Jason,

    it is a small town, pop under 5000.  The factory employs 2500.  There is nowhere near enough housing.  5% vacancy should cover me, unless I cannot get renovations done between tenants.   Also, the repair budget takes care of immediate cap expenditures, but I agree, I'm probably light there for the future.  

  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    @Doug Thompson, you say the population is under 5,000 with half of them employed at one place. (Obviously there are surrounding cities, etc.) What is the stability of the factory? 

    If the property doesn't appraise, and they won't lower the price to the appraisal, I'd walk away.

  • Roseville, MN · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    Thanks for your thoughts Mindy.   All the digging I've done indicates the factory will be there for a long time.  Anything can change, and I'm aware of that risk, but I feel confident.  They have very deep roots here, and seem committed to this region going forward.   

    I feel the cash flow will make the commercial appraisal, but there was a comparable sale of an 8-plex in 2014 for $195k but without garages, which was a great deal for someone.   I've been told that it was more of a buyers market at that time, but I don't know.   

    I'm reaching out to a local realtor for an opinion.   I'll see what he thinks.   If the number doesn't make it, we'll just have to start again.

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2010 · 123 posts · 48 votes
    10y
    I'm not sure if this mentioned...what type of factory is it? I work on market feasibility studies in markets nationwide and these types of towns were hit really hard during the most recent recession. There can be quite a bit of risk with so much reliance on one manufacturer. As someone else mentioned, take what people representing the town say with a grain of salt. The chamber of commerce, economic development, and city officials are going to promote the town and may not give you the whole story. I interview these people but then also compare what they are saying to employment and unemployment data, warn notices, major employment information, etc. in regards to rent data, speak with local property managers and check craigslist and other listing sources. The chamber is probably not the best poverty for this data. Best of luck!
  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2010 · 123 posts · 48 votes
    10y
    *not the best source
  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Doug Thompson,

    An 8 unit is a commercial building. It's value is determined by it's ability to produce income and is not subject to anyone's opinion.

    Base your decisions on the business factors: the numbers.

    David J Dachtera

    "Success is not a destination. Failure is not an event. Success is a process, failure is a choice."
    - DJ Benedict

  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Doug Thompson

    Hi Doug

    Shop the finance around.  You can find better than 25% down and 20 year amort.  Longer amort will allow you to cash flow better.  The rate is about in line with the market

    Gino

  • Punxsutawney, PA · Member since 2016 · 45 posts · 16 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Gino Barbaro:

    @Doug Thompson

    Hi Doug

    Shop the finance around.  You can find better than 25% down and 20 year amort.  Longer amort will allow you to cash flow better.  The rate is about in line with the market

    Gino

    That is great advice Doug. Stretch that puppy out to 30 years and get that bank payment lowered. Doug may not get out of the 25% down for commercial, but deep hunting, he might find 20%. Make sure you don't go by me. I am a newby, and this is my first post on a great forum. I am researching with a goal of purchasing within 6 months. I have seen a lot of 2% rule written on here. Whether or not I take that rule to heart. Doug's deal is above the 2% rule, which is great. I would do the deal. Also, I would not let factory talk sway me. Just do the deal. If you try to get fancypants and overthink local economics, you'll never buy. Factory could close, a meteor could hit the town, and ISIS could come in and tell Doug they are the new landlords too. Blah, if the deal works for YOU Doug, then pull the trigger and collect those rents !! Good Luck Doug !

  • Roseville, MN · Member since 2016 · 52 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    Bringing this thread to a conclusion, I have walked away from the deal on this apartment building.

    Two issues, were the comparable sales, but especially my personal rent survey. 

    I contacted a local realtor for a price opinion, and he showed 4 sales within the last 24 months that confirmed the price.  These were better buildings that have sold for lower, or substantially lower.

    Still, its about cash flow.  So, without being able to get a clear enough idea of the rental market rates, I started knocking on doors.   What I found were rents were up to $550/month for very nice condition similar building, and $450/mo for the next door neighbor buildings, that were cleaner and much better managed than this unit. 

    So, our building owner has squeezed his rents $1-200 above market, to create this cap rate.   I informed him that the price didn't work; I didn't give him (yet) a counter offer.   Frankly, I'm not sure how I'd price it knowing he is at $650/mo while his neighbors are at $450/mo in rents.

    In the end, I learned a great deal, and avoided a tough mistake.

    By the way, I had no concerns at all about the factory town issue.   They will be there for a long time.

    Thanks to all that gave me their input.    I can't recall which podcast it was, but someone said get out a clipboard and start knocking on doors to know your target neighborhood.

    My number one lesson; do your due diligence, and confirm all your numbers.  Number two, you cannot listen to enough podcasts.

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