Seller Financing: How can I make this deal happen?

Seller Financing: How can I make this deal happen?

Investor · Almont, MI · Member since 2015 · 360 posts · 302 votes

I have the chance to buy 3 multi unit properties owned by a seller who wants to retire. The seller is willing to do seller financing with the following terms:

35% Down, 7% Interest, 7 Year Balloon

The asking price and rent rolls are as follows:

Property 1 = $63,999

Unit 1: $550

Unit 2: $550

Total Monthly Income: $1,100

Property 2 = $349,999

Unit 1: $400 Unit 7: $450

Unit 2: $450 Unit 8: $450

Unit 3: $430 Unit 9: $450

Unit 4: Empty ($450) Unit 10: $450

Unit 5: $410 Unit 11: $350

Unit 6: $450 Unit 12: $450

Total Monthly Income $5,190 + $150 (Coin Laundry) = $5,340

Property 3 = $239,900

Unit 1: $550

Unit 2: $550

Unit 3: $550

Unit 4: $550

Unit 5: $550

Unit 6: $450

Total Monthly Income: $3,200

I will have about $60K available pending an SFR that I am selling but that does not give me the total downpayment the seller would like which is about $225K. How could I structure an offer that takes advantage of the seller financing offered given what I have available in cash? Would it be reasonable to offer 10% down to the seller? Could I borrow part of the 35% down payment that I don't have from a private or commercial lender?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!!

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New York City, NY · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 4 votes
10y

Does he have a kinds? Give him 10% down and 25% share of profits. You will handle all management etc and he will get profits, appreciation etc. Or you can change it to 10% down +45% share +45% loan or something like that. Seller will protect the downside and gets potential to upside. 

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  • Contractor · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2014 · 885 posts · 359 votes
    10y

    @Dante Pirouz do you have the credit and reserves to go to a bank and get a loan for 75% of the purchase price?

    Honestly, if the seller won't come down on 35% down, and you have the means to go to a bank, ask the seller to finance the 25% down-payment, so you can get the bank loan.  That way, he'll get a lot more up front.

    If you don't have the credit or reserves to go to a bank, you could either negotiate the down-payment lower by sweetening the pot some other way, or get an investor to front you the remainder or the money you need (get a loan from them, make them an equity partner, etc.)

  • Covington, GA · Member since 2014 · 295 posts · 93 votes
    10y

    Hi Dante. I will defer to more seasoned investors and keep an eye on this thread. But from what I've learned, many investors have a Price vs Terms type of thought process. The seller can have one...but not both. If he wants those terms, especially with that 35% down payment, he should yield some on the price...or vice versa. Of course it does depend on the market as well. Perhaps it's justified, perhaps not. Either way good luck. Make sure to still run the numbers many ways in the BP Calculators.

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    Does he have a kinds? Give him 10% down and 25% share of profits. You will handle all management etc and he will get profits, appreciation etc. Or you can change it to 10% down +45% share +45% loan or something like that. Seller will protect the downside and gets potential to upside. 

  • Nathan DionesPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Redlands, CA · Member since 2011 · 127 posts · 43 votes
    10y

    I like Krystof's idea.  How about 10% down, the seller takes a 90% note at a fair rate, 50% of net operating income until the balance reaches 35% as a down? But you get 100% ownership, deductions and depreciation. That way it might only take 2 years or so to pay it off.

    Are all the properties debt free or does a seller have mortgages?

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Way too much down, way too big of a loan based on your cash situation, and way too short of a pay back period. How do you intend to come up with almost half a million in seven years? That's $60K per year you'll have to save to be able to pay this seller off. The bigger question here is, how much of a discount are you getting on the retail value of these properties? Based on the rents, it sounds like the prices are good, but I live in California so I have no idea what your market is doing.

    Why not eat the elephant one bite at a time? Take down the least expensive property and once you get control of it, work on shoring up the financing. Then, move on to the next. If you're getting a decent discount, maybe sell them one at a time until you are left with one that you have paid off considerably. 

    As a buy and hold investor, I want to keep everything I get a 'Yes' on from a seller. Only problem is, I run out of cash. Every once in a while, I have to drag something out behind the woodshed and harvest the equity. 

    In this situation, I might sell off the two most expensive properties and use the profits to be left with the least expensive free and clear or mostly paid off. You'd hopefully still have a large chunk of your operating capital so you can stay in business. 

    Another option, if you're getting a significant discount, is to find a partner on the deal. You might be able to raise the entire down payment from a partner and still retain 25-50% of the deal. Just depends on your negotiation skills.

    Here is what I would and have done;

    Find a fellow investor and it doesn't have to be someone in real estate. You split the deal 50/50, but you guarantee that person a 6% return on their cash invested off the top. She puts up the down payment of $229,000 and you pay $1,145 per month on that.

    Using the very conservative 50% rule, you take a nominal management fee for doing the work, and split all the cash flow 50/50 but you have to pay the 6% regardless. There should be plenty of cash available every month and if you do a good job which you will because you'll be a partner, you should be able to pocket at least $1,000/month.

    $654K purchase price. $229K down. $425K 1st at 7% = $2,500/month

    GSI $9,500

    10% taxes, 5% insurance, 10% maint, 10% mngmt, 10% vac, 5% learning curve

    $4,250 net

    - $2,500 interest pmt on seller's 1st

    $1,750 cash flow to split, but partner gets 6% guarantee

    - 1,145 partner guarantee

    $605 cash flow to you just for putting the deal together PLUS the 10% management fee. Conservatively, you'll be pocketing around $1,500 a month if you do your job. That's not bad income for 14 units and no money down. Of course, there are escrow fees and all that jazz so maybe you have your partner put up $240K.

    When I was doing deals like this, I also included an acquisition or finder's fee for putting the deal together. So, maybe the partner puts up $250K and you use $10K to line your pocket and pay the 6% on the $240K. 

    It's late. There might be some slight miscalculations here or there, but you can iron out the details. I've done a bunch of deals very similar to this and even with a few hiccups here and there, they still all worked out well for both myself and my partners.


  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    The numbers look like they can work, but you need to evaluate the true vacancy history, the tenant turnover, the real expenses, any deferred maintenance, property condition, and if neighborhood is stable, on rise or in decline.

    Many investors are concerned only with the numbers. This is half the equation. We need to understand what this investment will look like after we purchase, in three years, in five years, in ten years.  I have seen many investments where the current numbers didn't make sense turn into goldmines as demand changed, neighborhoods became hot, new facilities built.  I have also seen investors take losses on properties purchased with initial high cash flow.

    All other things being equal, high leverage, like 90%, is a two edged sword.  It can magnify profits, creating a very high return on invested capital.  However it also means higher fixed cost of debt service which magnifies the problems of vacancy loss, unanticipated repairs, utility price increases, etc., resulting in higher risk, less profit margin, and greater stress and worry.

    Higher leverage may often result in margins too small to hire a competent property manager meaning the investor will be managing the property herself or managing a revolving door of less than qualified individual property managers.

    An investor in any property needs to consider not only how they they will purchase the property with available cash, but also the consequences of investing with high leverage.  Most properties purchased all cash will provide a positive cash flow with little owner involvement, somewhat less at 50% leverage, and very few at 90% leverage.  Market pricing seems to be set up (in general) so that 75% leverage is the dividing line between relative comfort and relative stress.

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Investor · Almont, MI · Member since 2015 · 360 posts · 302 votes
    10y

    Thanks everyone for all of the helpful comments on this!

    @Jeremy Pace yes I do have the credit, income and reserves to get a commercial loan I just want to avoid using all of my precious cash if I can...on your suggestion I am meeting with the commercial loan officer at my business bank on Monday to see if they are ok with the seller holding some of the down payment debt.

    @Jay Dewberry yes the numbers I've run so far look very strong. The rents are currently below market rents so there is an opportunity to add value as tenants switch out...capex needs are the area where I would need a better assessment once an offer is accepted but the properties are generally in good shape.

    @Krystof Bartos and @Nathan Diones I know that his wife died recently and he just wants to retire from real estate with some cash in his bank so he doesn't look open to sharing profits but I can always ask the broker...I believe these are all owned debt free.

    @Aaron Mazzrillo I hear you...what is proposed above is the sellers first salvo so I can respond with a written offer that either asks for discount on the asking price or lowers the down or both. The asking prices are about at market rate so they aren't heavily discounted except for the duplex. Your suggestion makes me wonder whether buying just the duplex might be a good first step which I could easily do with a residential 1-4 unit loan from my bank and a standard 20% down. I just am anxious/impatient to get to my goal of 20+ units and I thought the seller financing might help me get all these properties and hit my numbers...It doesn't look like there are many in this area with the capability of buying these type of multi-units (most investors in this area are buying SFRs) so there isn't a lot of competition for the deal.

    @Don Konipol I agree with your assessment of 100% leverage and I usually buy small multi-units for all cash so using leverage at the outset makes me a little nervous but it is either move up to buying bigger multiunits or continue to buy SFRs/<4 units at a slow rate or hit it out of the park with a big one. The only thing I lack is the really big chunk of cash for the down so I appreciate the creative ideas on how to jump this hurdle...I will let you all know how the bank financing goes!

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Plenty of suggestions already.

    Consider how much you can raise rents immediately or even better have the present owner raise the rents now to improve the appearance with your banker.

    The numbers do look solid on this deal. I would do what ever it takes to make it work. What ever it takes.

    Convince him that a good solid guaranteed income over a longer time line than 7 years would be to his advantage. Less down up front, higher interest, longer term maybe appealing to him.

    If he finances make sure you keep the ability for you to refinance flexible.  

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Dante Pirouz Just because you can buy 20 units, doesn't mean you should. There is a saying I hope you never have a story to relate to it;

    It isn't the ones you don't buy that hurt you.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    "35% Down, 7% Interest, 7 Year Balloon"

    People often ask why would people with 35% down go with owner finance when they could get  a bank loan for less down?

    The answer is some people have lot's of money but for whatever reason cannot qualify for a regular commercial bank loan. So in that instance this works for 35% although you try to negotiate less down.

    If you can go to a regular bank of course some will allow only 20% down if the debt numbers work with the purchase price. Loan costs are typically higher than a regular seller financed deal. Banks tend to give shorter term loans for 5 years and sometimes 7 years.

    7% rate frankly just sucks. Rate should be no more than 5% fixed for 7 years with no annual step ups  and a 30 year amortization. You want to maximize cash flow. You do not want a large debt payment on an older building needing repairs. If some tenants go out and income drops suddenly and you have repairs and make readies to do to the building to get fully performing again the high debt service payment will crush your turnaround efforts.

    Sounds like the seller wants to owner finance as they have used up all their depreciation schedule so want to take the income a little at a time.

    You have to walk away sometimes. I walked away recently from a 2 million retail strip center 50% occupied. Just could not come to terms with the seller. Their solutions fitted them but to me were not good so I told them thanks,but no thanks.  For whatever reason they had a 15 year amortization schedule on the loan in place which was horrible. Made the debt payment really high and break even. Bank would not change to 25 year amort. like I wanted.

    Always say NO to bad or marginal deals. If you don't then when one that does work comes along you will already be strapped with a bad property and debt and the opportunity will go to someone else.

  • Investor · Almont, MI · Member since 2015 · 360 posts · 302 votes
    10y

    So the owner has now dropped the asking prices on these properties... @Joel Owens were you mostly down on this deal because of the asking price and/or the interest rate? I'm wondering if the price going down $60K for all three make the deal worth it!

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    Price going down 60k doesn't really matter.

    It's the TERMS that allow you to have possibly more cash flow and more reserves with putting less down.

    The seller sounds like they want a really large down payment and a high interest note with a short amort.

    That's great for thembut crappy for the buyer. Owner finance is just like buying a bank foreclosure. Just because you have those keywords does not mean it is a deal all the time. I see lot's of owner finance deals that are junk.

    The seller might just want someone that is a buyer with cash but can't get conventional financing. If a buyer can get regular a bank loan they would not go for what the seller is proposing.

    The art of the deal is negotiating where both the buyer and seller feel comfortable with the terms they are getting . Notice I didn't say the other side feels they won but they are agreeable where it works for both parties.   

  • Investor · Almont, MI · Member since 2015 · 360 posts · 302 votes
    9y

    @Joel Owens Need more insights from the brain trust at BP...the seller has now agreed to the following:

    12 unit building for $320K + 6 unit condos for $220K + 2 unit duplex $60K

    Land contract, $30K down, 5.5% interest, 30 year amortization, 5 year balloon for all three properties

    Should I move ahead on this deal?

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    9y

    Land contract you do not own the property typically until the contract is fulfilled. So you could put all of this time,effort, and energy in to get nothing down the road.

    Maybe add some extensions to the balloon under certain conditions and the option to sell off certain properties with lien releases off of the note. You want ultimate flexibility for instance if someone comes along and wants to buy some but not all of your units.

    Get an attorney to make sure you are protected.  

  • Investor · Almont, MI · Member since 2015 · 360 posts · 302 votes
    9y

    Awesome! Thanks @Joel Owens...This is super helpful!!

  • Investor · McKinney, TX · Member since 2014 · 189 posts · 93 votes
    9y

    @Aaron Mazzrillo I hear you...what is proposed above is the sellers first salvo so I can respond with a written offer that either asks for discount on the asking price or lowers the down or both. The asking prices are about at market rate so they aren't heavily discounted except for the duplex. Your suggestion makes me wonder whether buying just the duplex might be a good first step which I could easily do with a residential 1-4 unit loan from my bank and a standard 20% down. I just am anxious/impatient to get to my goal of 20+ units and I thought the seller financing might help me get all these properties and hit my numbers...It doesn't look like there are many in this area with the capability of buying these type of multi-units (most investors in this area are buying SFRs) so there isn't a lot of competition for the deal.

    @Don Konipol

    You already named the possibility that immediately came to my mind: buy one of the properties you can do with a conventional investment loan and not straining your resources. But I say that as someone who doesn't like partnerships and am generally pretty conservative.

    Assuming the duplex is in decent shape in a stable area with good demand for that type of unit, it sounds like a decent buy.

  • Investor · Almont, MI · Member since 2015 · 360 posts · 302 votes
    9y

    Just wanted to update everyone that we finally have agreement with the seller on the following seller financing terms for the 20 units:

    5.7% interest, 5 year balloon, 30 year amortization, $56K down (~10% down)

    2 unit property = $55,000

    Total Monthly Income: $1,100

    12 unit property = $312,000

    Total Monthly Income $5,190 + $150 (Coin Laundry) = $5,340

    6 unit property = $212,000

    Total Monthly Income: $3,200

    Thanks to everyone on this thread who has helped me try to figure out this deal! Fingers crossed that everything looks good through due diligence period!

  • Rocky Hill, CT · Member since 2014 · 200 posts · 56 votes
    9y

    @Dante Pirouz - Great job negotiating. Numbers look good. Best of luck with this portfolio. 

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