Syndicaters can't get enough investors

Syndicaters can't get enough investors

Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2015 · 501 posts · 504 votes

Background: I have been looking into multi-family passive investing. I attended a multi-family seminar in early November, hosted by a guru (he hates the term but I'll call him that here for simplicity) who knows my local market very well. I was convinced that it's the right path for me as a passive investor, but was discouraged by the high cost to join the program, which is exacerbated by the fact that I currently don't quite have enough liquid capital to participate in most deals. I networked with several deal sponsors at the event, in the hopes that I would be able to work with them in the future.

Two months later, two situations have raised my eyebrows:

1. One of the sponsors I met, who has a good track record, was working on a new deal that was mentioned at the seminar. I requested the information, knowing that I would not participate, but wanted to get practice examining the PPM and other documents. After our initial contact and email exchange, he has since followed up with me twice, asking if I am interested. The second time was after the date that he initially expected to have all his passive investors committed, and he still has room for 15-20% of the funds he needs.

2. The "guru" who ran the seminar emailed me recently about a deal one of his contacts (whom I have not met before) is sponsoring, in which he (the "guru") is investing his own money. I assume it was sent to everyone who attended. I also requested the information, for the same reason as the previous example. After reading through it, the dates on the documents indicated that I was not part of the initial distribution, which leads me to believe that they didn't get enough interest the first time and now were casting a wider net to reach more potential investors.

My question is, are these the signs of a weak deal?

I've been under the impression that there is more investor money out there than good deals, which would mean that anyone who has a good opportunity should have no problem finding passive investors. I don't have the expertise to do my own due diligence, which is fine because I am not ready to participate right now anyway, so all I can do is look at the projected performance, and the numbers looked good. Can I assume that more savvy investors have found flaws with the projections, and are passing? Or do all syndications take several weeks (or months) to generate enough interest to raise the money they need?

Obviously I am not asking anyone to evaluate the deals themselves. I am just asking if it's a red flag that an experienced deal sponsor with a wide network can't immediately find 30-50 people to put up 50-100K a pop?

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Rental Property Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 130 posts · 77 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Paul B.:

My question is, are these the signs of a weak deal?

I've been under the impression that there is more investor money out there than good deals, which would mean that anyone who has a good opportunity should have no problem finding passive investors. Can I assume that more savvy investors have found flaws with the projections, and are passing? Or do all syndications take several weeks (or months) to generate enough interest to raise the money they need?

 I am just asking if it's a red flag that an experienced deal sponsor with a wide network can't immediately find 30-50 people to put up 50-100K a pop?

Paul, skepticism is good when it comes to real estate investing. However, allow me to play devil's advocate here. First things first....you assume that because someone is experienced that they have a "wide network" of potential investors. That may or may not be true. Someone could have a large network of potential investors, in theory, but the reality could be that only a small percentage of that network is both financially able and ready to invest. Don't assume that just because someone is experienced that they have a deep network of investors with funds ready to invest. You'd be surprised at how shallow the pool might be.

I invest in Texas and know several multifamily investors in the DFW market. Based on the situation you described, I think I know exactly who you're talking about. If it's the same guru, I know that he and his coaching clients have done over 21 multifamily transactions in 2015 alone. You heard about these deals in November. It is quite possible, with it being the end of the year, that these deal sponsors have already tapped out the natural resources within their current network, and need to find/develop a new pipeline of investors because their existing network is already committed to other projects and either can't or won't invest any more. 

So, does that mean the deals you saw are flawed or deficient in some way? Maybe, maybe not. You need more information to know for sure. 

Is it an automatic red flag that an experienced deal sponsor is taking longer than a week to raise millions of dollars? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on size of deal, returns of the deal, location of the deal, timing/business plan/exit strategy of the deal, and which investors are getting wind of the deal. 

Look at it from another angle - if this deal sponsor had raised the funds "immediately," would it be safe to assume that the deal was great just based solely on the speed on which the funds were raised? I don't think so.

Like I said, skepticism is good and warranted, but you also need more information to arrive at a conclusion. Continue to do your due diligence and keep asking the hard questions on everything that comes your way, but also examine your own assumptions. Good luck!

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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    10y

    If they are experienced you do not need 50 people at 100k a pop. That is a 5 million down payment on a property.

    Must be a whopper.

    Investors who have a track record with a sponsor often will put in much more than that if they like the deal. If this has been shopped around with only partial interest there has to be something making others hesitate on it.

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    It is a guru, like their programs, they're full of promises that don't relly work.

  • Rental Property Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 130 posts · 77 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Paul B.:

    My question is, are these the signs of a weak deal?

    I've been under the impression that there is more investor money out there than good deals, which would mean that anyone who has a good opportunity should have no problem finding passive investors. Can I assume that more savvy investors have found flaws with the projections, and are passing? Or do all syndications take several weeks (or months) to generate enough interest to raise the money they need?

     I am just asking if it's a red flag that an experienced deal sponsor with a wide network can't immediately find 30-50 people to put up 50-100K a pop?

    Paul, skepticism is good when it comes to real estate investing. However, allow me to play devil's advocate here. First things first....you assume that because someone is experienced that they have a "wide network" of potential investors. That may or may not be true. Someone could have a large network of potential investors, in theory, but the reality could be that only a small percentage of that network is both financially able and ready to invest. Don't assume that just because someone is experienced that they have a deep network of investors with funds ready to invest. You'd be surprised at how shallow the pool might be.

    I invest in Texas and know several multifamily investors in the DFW market. Based on the situation you described, I think I know exactly who you're talking about. If it's the same guru, I know that he and his coaching clients have done over 21 multifamily transactions in 2015 alone. You heard about these deals in November. It is quite possible, with it being the end of the year, that these deal sponsors have already tapped out the natural resources within their current network, and need to find/develop a new pipeline of investors because their existing network is already committed to other projects and either can't or won't invest any more. 

    So, does that mean the deals you saw are flawed or deficient in some way? Maybe, maybe not. You need more information to know for sure. 

    Is it an automatic red flag that an experienced deal sponsor is taking longer than a week to raise millions of dollars? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on size of deal, returns of the deal, location of the deal, timing/business plan/exit strategy of the deal, and which investors are getting wind of the deal. 

    Look at it from another angle - if this deal sponsor had raised the funds "immediately," would it be safe to assume that the deal was great just based solely on the speed on which the funds were raised? I don't think so.

    Like I said, skepticism is good and warranted, but you also need more information to arrive at a conclusion. Continue to do your due diligence and keep asking the hard questions on everything that comes your way, but also examine your own assumptions. Good luck!

  • Real Estate Broker · North Richland Hills, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 607 votes
    10y

    The "guru" you're referring to is reputable, and has helped both lead and passive investors make millions of dollars.   I have no relationship w/ him, but I am invested in one of his students' deals, which is performing very well.

    Lack of success raising funds could be indicative of many factors:

    1) the current ownership didn't leave enough "meat on the bones" to make it a good deal

    2) the t's and c's of the deal are too favorable to the lead(s).   The can charge whatever fees they want, but if they're not competitive w/ other investors' options, it could make funding more difficult.   LU has lead investor guidelines which are very passive-friendly, and IMO this is where they differentiate themselves from other programs.    No advance fees, progressive overrides tiered based on # deals,, capped asset mgt. + prop. mgt. fees., etc.

    3) It may not be good timing....an investor could have tapped out their investment funds recently, and not have a lot left to deploy right now.

    4) some investors are getting concerned about both the MF market and macro economic conditions, and may be more inclined to hold or sell.   Just like the stock market, you can find investors w/ all different kinds of outlooks at any give time.

    Most of the good deals I've seen w/ reasonable terms and proven sponsors usually get funded pretty quick.

  • Investor · Flower Mound, TX · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 48 votes
    10y

    Investing is not just about the deal but one's tolerance for risk. In this case the lead assembling the deal may be able to handle the risk but the passives can't or won't. It doesn't necessarily mean its a bad deal. Maybe the terms aren't to everyone's liking or even expectations from the passives are too high. Sometimes it happens that way. 

    Remember leads are people too. I've sent back a PPM and asked for clarification on items that didn't add up to me. Keep networking, evaluating PPMs and don't stop there. Talk to others that have invested with the leads you relate with, do background checks and ask to review their financial position. It takes some work but it won't be long before you find the right people and the right deal.

  • Commercial Real Estate Lender / Syndicator · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 888 posts · 309 votes
    10y

    @Paul B.I've know that "guru" over two years.  He's above board and a stickler for following SEC guidelines.  My guess is you ended up on the wrong email list -- more specifically his investor list, not his marketing list since you attended the event in November -- or perhaps both lists.  That said, the "guru" is co-sponsoring two deals that I'm aware of.  There are at least 4 or 5 active deals right now in the same group.  Given they all require multi-million dollar raises, it's not difficult to imagine it might take someone more work than usual to raise roughly $7.5MM for just one of those deals.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mineola, NY · Member since 2014 · 838 posts · 212 votes
    10y

    @Paul B. You are asking great questions!! The answer is it could be a weak deal or the returns might not hit the levels his group of investors want so he needs new money.

    I would agree with the statement that good deals get funded and finding the money is less of a problem. To this point sometimes time of year can hurt you when raising money and also how many deals you have your raising money for. I don't know if investors found flaws, but more to the maybe the returns don't meet their expectations or location is not what they want.

    Each deal is going to be a little different when it comes to timing. 

    Each sponsor is different, and the other thing that I do is if the deal doesn't meet the criteria for my investor I won't put him in the deal. I want to make sure the investment meets the expectation and criteria for the investor.

  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2015 · 501 posts · 504 votes
    10y

    I'd like to thank everyone for their well-thought out, informative responses. I did not post the exact numbers because I did not want to give away the people in question, as some might think this post portrays them in a negative light. I can see that many of you know at least one of the people involved, and I do believe that they are reputable and the students of the "guru" have indeed been very successful. But I am new to evaluating these type of deals so I am still figuring out what is typical and what is cause for concern.

    As an update, the second deal mentioned in my original post has been fully funded, and apparently took under 30 days. Perhaps they weren't as needy as I suspected. I haven't heard about the outcome of the first deal, but I am keeping my ear to the ground.

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