Offer made - then owner filed bankruptcy

Offer made - then owner filed bankruptcy

Rental Property Investor · Lake Hopatcong, NJ · Member since 2011 · 37 posts · 3 votes

I made an offer on a MF short sale in PA - was a solid offer, at least 85%+ of appraised value. 2 months later the bank finally reviewed it and verbally advised my agent that they would be accepting the offer. We have not received written acceptance. I just found out the current owner filed bankruptcy 3 weeks BEFORE my offer was submitted. Neither my agent nor the listing agent were aware of this - I found out by stopping by the property. There were notices on the doors for tenants to vacate immediately due to bankruptcy, etc... all tenants had moved out. We contacted the listing agent and she advised she would try to pull something together with this deal - to keep it out of bankruptcy proceedings. Given that the bank, the owner, and the buyer all wish to proceed with this deal, common sense says this deal should still happen. We all know banks don't do 'common sense'... How likely is it that this deal will still happen? Any thoughts or advice? If it does proceed to a bankruptcy trustee sale, anyone know a rough time frame? and isn't there also trustee fees (5% or so) to come up with out of pocket? One of my concerns is the time frame - tenants have vacated, water and electric will be shut off during upcoming winter months - could be repairs needed. My revised offer at that time would obviously be less - it would behoove the bank to allow this deal to happen now. Anyone gone through a situation like this?

0Reply
32 views

Most Popular Reply

SFR Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 484 posts · 181 votes
13y

The trustee has a choice about whether or not to seize an asset with a loan, if it's at or near 0% equity, the trustee wont want it. Then you would just need to get him to sign off, get the bk court to approve that, and deal with the bank and the seller normally. My only concern is that the banks "standard" short sale forms and approval letters might offer recourse to the bank against the seller - which the bk court and the sellers attorney won't allow, and the bank is likely to even be skittish, since there can be huge penalties for them if they attempt to "collect" on a debt that's subject to bk protection. Even a billing statement (accidentally) sent to a debtor can result in a fine to the lender.

I wouldn't run if the deal is right, just don't plan on closing in a week.

As for potential damage, I wouldn't raise that issue until and unless it happens. If something happens, send some proof & some estimates and ask for a reduction. The lender isn't going to want to negotiate "extra" off for future potential damage that hasn't happened.

If the seller is cooperative, perhaps front a few bucks to secure & winterize the property. It's risky, but it can get you dibs & cooperation from the seller, which is a great thing.

See this reply in the discussion

16 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • SFR Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 484 posts · 181 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Tim M.:
    I made an offer on a MF short sale in PA - was a solid offer, at least 85%+ of appraised value. 2 months later the bank finally reviewed it and verbally advised my agent that they would be accepting the offer. We have not received written acceptance. I just found out the current owner filed bankruptcy 3 weeks BEFORE my offer was submitted. Neither my agent nor the listing agent were aware of this - I found out by stopping by the property. There were notices on the doors for tenants to vacate immediately due to bankruptcy, etc... all tenants had moved out. We contacted the listing agent and she advised she would try to pull something together with this deal - to keep it out of bankruptcy proceedings. Given that the bank, the owner, and the buyer all wish to proceed with this deal, common sense says this deal should still happen. We all know banks don't do 'common sense'... How likely is it that this deal will still happen? Any thoughts or advice? If it does proceed to a bankruptcy trustee sale, anyone know a rough time frame? and isn't there also trustee fees (5% or so) to come up with out of pocket? One of my concerns is the time frame - tenants have vacated, water and electric will be shut off during upcoming winter months - could be repairs needed. My revised offer at that time would obviously be less - it would behoove the bank to allow this deal to happen now. Anyone gone through a situation like this?

    The bank isn't the issue when the owner has filed bk, it's the bk trustee and the court. After filing bk, the seller really has no incentive to complete a short sale ( they've already nuked their own credit, and they're not responsible for anything anymore).

    If for some odd reason they do still want to complete the short-sale, their attorney will have to get permission from the court and the trustee to sell their (negative) interest - its fairly easy for them to do, but they don't really have any motivation to do so - and an attorney may advise them not to do a short, simply because nothing good can come to them from it.

  • Investor · Union, NJ · Member since 2011 · 838 posts · 295 votes
    13y

    I had a friend in your exact same position. Property was a SS and owner filed bankrupcy.

    The deal eventually happened but took (GULP) 10 MONTHS to close.

    There are certain rules and regulations that need to be followed when a bankrupcy is involved. I believe even the banks hands are tied to this and cannot sell immediately.

    IF you are in a hurry to close I'd say maybe move on and pass but if you can wait it out I believe the deal cans till happen with patience.

    regards,
    Chris

  • Investor · Union, NJ · Member since 2011 · 838 posts · 295 votes
    13y

    Hi Tim,

    Where is Lake Shawnee? I am in Jersey also. I invesst in Union county and live in Somerset County. I am gonna guess you are in West Jersey? Warren county maybe?

    Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.

    Chris

  • Rental Property Investor · Lake Hopatcong, NJ · Member since 2011 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    13y

    Mark H. - true, I see now that the seller has no incentive here. But wouldn't the bank have some? They are risking losing a very reasonable offer (that they liked). Or is it too late? - it's in the bk trustees hands now... It seems the only person who wins is the bk trustee, who of course will add their fees in the sale. I'm assuming a bk sale is very similar to a foreclosure auction? I'll have to keep my eye on this prop - I guess I'll just wait it out and make another offer at the bk sale. Maybe my patience will pay off and I'll get it at an even lower price then.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    13y

    Is it a chapter 7,13,11 (business re-organization) etc.??

    Are all people connected on the loan for the property involved in the bankruptcy??

    This could take a very long time as mentioned.Since the property is underwater the trustee will not have nay interest in holding up a sale since there will be no excess funds to help pay off creditors in the plan.

    If the property had some equity to neutral they might try to squeeze a little out and wait for the highest offer.

    If the tenants have vacated as mentioned then the property might become heavily vandalized just sitting there.The bank is at the mercy of the court and how fast they move.Usually the file is transferred from the loss mitigation to the BK department with the loan asset manager.

    The owner could still try for a loan mod or other workout while in BK with their permission.The bank gets them to sign in writing if they want to pursue this route so the bank will not be accused of collection activity while in the BK automatic protection stay.

    I think you watch this property but do not let it take up a huge part of your time.

  • Rental Property Investor · Lake Hopatcong, NJ · Member since 2011 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    13y

    Chris Masons - I'm in NW Jersey (Morris/Sussex counties), but most of my investing is in PA where I'm originally from. This deal is also in PA. I went into this deal knowing it could take a while - was already a short sale, so I'm in no hurry. My only concern is the disrepair that will happen to a vacant prop through the winter. My new offer will reflect that though - so ultimately it could work out better.
    Not all that familiar with those counties - how are taxes there? You must be buying at well under ARV to get decent cash flow with NJ taxes.

  • Investor · Union, NJ · Member since 2011 · 838 posts · 295 votes
    13y

    Hi Tim,

    Taxes are riduclous here in Union County. As an example 2 fam. I just put under contract yearly taxes are 8,800. It's very depressing when what your qtrly tax payments are some peoples yearly in teh mid west and other paarts of the country :(

    I got a fairly good deal on this one as it was an estate sale. DOesn't need any work actually. I am getting about a 12% CAC return.

    Chris

  • Rental Property Investor · Lake Hopatcong, NJ · Member since 2011 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    13y

    Joel Owens - not sure what chapter they filed, 7 I believe - no reorganization. Is a partnership involved with multiple properties- these 2 guys owned 10+ properties in that area (bad timing and over leveraged). I believe this prop was neutral equity but couldn't make up for the negative they had in the rest - kinda got sucked into the bk. So loan mods, etc. are out of the question I think. I'll be keeping my eye on this one for sure. I'll also investigate the other properties involved - I was aware of 1 other prop (also short sale), but wasn't interested. How/when can I find out what other properties are invloved? Will it be pulbic notice?

  • Rental Property Investor · Lake Hopatcong, NJ · Member since 2011 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    13y

    Chris - yes, taxes are killer in my area as well... it prevents me from doing much investing here. But kudos brother! 12% CoC is pretty amazing in NJ. Fairly consistent appreciation is the other upside there. I'm getting 25%+ CoC out of state, but appreciation is nothing and exit strategy is a little slim - mostly 4 units, so harder to sell. But I'm buy and hold long term so cash is my king at the moment.

  • SFR Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 484 posts · 181 votes
    13y

    The trustee has a choice about whether or not to seize an asset with a loan, if it's at or near 0% equity, the trustee wont want it. Then you would just need to get him to sign off, get the bk court to approve that, and deal with the bank and the seller normally. My only concern is that the banks "standard" short sale forms and approval letters might offer recourse to the bank against the seller - which the bk court and the sellers attorney won't allow, and the bank is likely to even be skittish, since there can be huge penalties for them if they attempt to "collect" on a debt that's subject to bk protection. Even a billing statement (accidentally) sent to a debtor can result in a fine to the lender.

    I wouldn't run if the deal is right, just don't plan on closing in a week.

    As for potential damage, I wouldn't raise that issue until and unless it happens. If something happens, send some proof & some estimates and ask for a reduction. The lender isn't going to want to negotiate "extra" off for future potential damage that hasn't happened.

    If the seller is cooperative, perhaps front a few bucks to secure & winterize the property. It's risky, but it can get you dibs & cooperation from the seller, which is a great thing.

  • Rental Property Investor · Lake Hopatcong, NJ · Member since 2011 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    13y

    Mark H. - thanks for the great insight! So the trustee probably won't want it - I have an in there. The bank also still has incentive to make this happen - since I was the only offer they had in the last 8 months, they should realize if I bail they will likely get less (or nothing) at bk sale, and it all ends up costing them more. But that's common sense again... Regardless, I'm not going anywhere - this is a solid deal and I'll stick around to see how it plays out. I wouldn't ask for a discount unless there was actual damage. But good idea on fronting winterization costs - yes, a little risky, but really not that costly. Very safe area too, so I'm not too worried about vandalism. Still waiting to hear details from the listing agent.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    13y

    Joel Owens has identified why the bank won't be doing much. With bankruptcy comes an automatic stay of all legal actions, and the bank's lawsuit to collect on the debt owed has to be halted as a result. Not the bank's fault that the borrower filed bankruptcy. The banks will usually have special servicing for handling borrowers in bankruptcy; they certainly aren't going to do anything that looks like a collection activity.

    And the borrower most likely just filed bankruptcy to delay the foreclosure; since you said it's in PA, the sheriff sale is postponed for now.

  • Rental Property Investor · Lake Hopatcong, NJ · Member since 2011 · 37 posts · 3 votes
    13y

    Steve Babiak - makes sense. Agreed, not the banks fault - certainly a delay tactic by the borrower. Isn't the end result the same though? Just added a few more months and time/effort/fees in bankruptcy court. Makes one wonder why there is even something called 'foreclosure' or even 'short sale'. These processes don't work when there is no incentive for anyone to do them. I suppose a short sale should preserve the borrowers 'excellent' credit history - but even that is debateable. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's input. Not familiar with this scenario - so just trying to figure out if this deal still has potential. Seems like wait and see is the plan.

  • Real Estate Investor · Whittier, CA · Member since 2012 · 92 posts · 19 votes
    13y

    Have patience and keep your name in front of the seller, bank rep, trustee, agent, everyone you can. Keep letting them know you are still interested. It's not guaranteed you'll get the deal but it might put you in front of the line when somebody gets the authorization to sell it. My thinking is the longer it takes the better it is for you. Hopefully the market will be better in 6 months or a year.

    Good luck.

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    @Tim M. Lots of good posts here. My 2 cents worth ( which will soon only be worth 1 cent due to inflation): keep your eyes on the points that matter. If it were me, I'd put this one on the back burner and invest your time and energy into deals that are workable and make sense.

    It IS possible to work this deal, however your expenses to date are merely the cost of doing business. Remember, this is a business! To work this deal, remember who has the power:

    BK judge - no transfer can occur, either voluntarily or via foreclosure with a bk stay in place

    BK Trustee - expects to be paid and will make a court motion to have BK dismissed if they see no payday for them in the horizon

    Property owner - can make a voluntary "request for BK dismissal" if they are ready to move forward and obtain an Order for Voluntary Dismissal from bK judge

    Lender/Servicers/Asset mgr will probably go forward absent so other information which would cause them to rethink or re-price their short pay. Their expenses go on, too however they understand these to be part of the cost of doing business

    Learn what you can but go find a better deal. Really!

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Tim M. What type of bankruptcy is it, a 13, 7 or ? If it's a 13, it's possible that the bankruptcy court will allow them to keep the property and negotiate a new payment agreement with the bank, etc. Also, did they own other property, a business, etc., or is the real estate the only asset? There are many factors that will enter in to the scenario, and all of them can drag on a long.. long... time

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.