HUD has Kept My $5,000 EMD

HUD has Kept My $5,000 EMD

Real Estate Investor · Fort Lauderdale · Member since 2010 · 1 post · 0 votes

In March of 2012 I attempted to buy a HUD foreclosure house. The house was misrepresented as a 2 bath home and had extensive damage not shown on HUD's inspection or appraisal. After I had my inspection completed I canceled my contract and offered to buy the house at a reduced price. My counter offer was rejected and I was notified I lost my entire earnest money deposit, EMD.
This was the 1st HUD house I tried to buy. It was also the 1st HUD house my agent had tried to buy. The agent processed the offer online thru her realtor’s HUD credentials. When we placed the online bid there were multiple questions where my agent tried to contact the local listing agent but never had any calls returned. We proceeded with the process and made an unknown error. The house only required a $1,000 EMD but we placed a $5,000 EMD. None of the HUD documentation that I saw or signed stated that on HUD houses over $50,000 only a $1,000 EMD is required. We placed this larger size deposit because our experience with buying property has proven that a larger EMD is more likely to get an offer accepted. There was one document we received after our bid was accepted that stated that our EMD was above the needed amount. But nothing in this document stated what the required amount was or that the amount had no bearing on the acceptance of a bid.
After we were notified of the loss of my EMD I contacted the listing realtor for HUD. I explained my situation to her and her assistant in person at their office. She stated that HUD should not have accepted my EMD and that they should have notified me that only $1,000 was required. She offered to intervene and work with HUD on returning all or a portion of my EMD. I stated to her that I was even willing to lose $1,000 but that the remaining $4,000 should be returned. The listing realtor had a series of health issues after our meeting and her working with HUD on my issue was intermittent. Recently the final statement from HUD was given and all my EMD was lost. I asked the realtor to supply me the contact information of whom she had been corresponding with and copies of those emails. She refused and I asked her to please supply me with any basic contact information for HUD that would assist me. I’m on my fourth request for the basic contact information and have received nothing.

I feel as a business person who buys homes in bad shape, remodels them and sells them that I have been wronged:
1. I should be the "market" as an investor that HUD targets and should make conducting business an easy process. Their tactics make the process difficult and do not follow standard real estate guidelines.
2. I as an investor I have been discriminated against. If I was an Owner Occupant in this transaction I would have received some or all my EMD back.
3. With the EMD amounts only being either $1,000 or $500; HUD should not accept any other amount.
4. In standard residential purchases there is always the right to an inspection. HUD’s business model an investor is “supposed” to conduct an inspection prior to making a bid on any property. As an investor I could never afford to pay for an inspection before I had an approved contract. I once placed 110 bids before I had an accepted bid. If I followed HUD’s business model and had inspections before I had an accepted bid it would have cost me $33,000 before I bought. Even once my bid was accepted by HUD I had to pay one of their servicing companies to allow electricity and water to be turned on in the subject property.
5. HUD misrepresented the property as having 2 bathrooms. The 2nd bath was illegal and will cause substantial money to be made legal.
6. Hud had not listed in their inspections that there was a plumbing issue. They only connect water at the house directly and do not turn on the city water when they do their inspection. The plumbing issue was between the city water supply and the house. This is still the responsibility of the homeowner to repair.
7. HUD had not listed in their inspections the serious termite damage that was uncovered in the roof joists.
8. HUD had not listed the Mold issues.

I would like to recoup my entire $5,000 EMD, $300 inspection and costs to activate the utilities. I have spent many hours trying to correct this and would like to be paid. I have visited several websites mentioning HUD investors losing their EMD. If possible I would like to start a Class Action Suit against HUD's business practices.

What are your thoughts and what would be my next step?

[REMOVED]

Signed Poor Dumb Investor

0
Topic locked
54 views

Most Popular Reply

J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
14y

John -

First, sorry to hear about your situation.

Unfortunately, I think the mistakes that you and your agent made were much worse than anything HUD did, and to be honest, and you should probably consider this a learning experience.

Here are some more specific thoughts:

- Did you look at the house before you put in an offer? Did you look at the house before you signed the paperwork and submitted your EM? You mentioned that there was extensive damage not indicated on the HUD paperwork, but that implies that this damage could have been found had you viewed the property in person -- if you didn't view the property prior to signing the contract, this was clearly your biggest mistake. Unfortunately, with REOs -- even if there is an inspection report -- it's pretty much "buyer beware".

- Your agent really needed to be familiar with HUD guidelines for EM. It's not too difficult to find out HUD's EM rules, and had your agent spent 3 minutes doing an Internet search, you easily could have saved $4000. I'm not saying that it was right for HUD to keep the extra money, but I'm not surprised -- you'd probably do the same thing if you were selling a house and a buyer backed out after paying EM.

- Sorry, but you haven't been "discriminated against" because you're an investor. HUD clearly states their EM guidelines, and clearly states that as an investor, you take additional risks over and above that of owner occupants. As an investor, you sometimes need to take risks, and this is one of those times; if you're not comfortable with the rules HUD lays out, don't make offers on HUD houses.

- Did you agent mail the paperwork and EM to the HUD office or drop it off in person? If there is a local office, the agent should drop it off in person; when they do this, the person taking the packet will verify that everything is in order and if something is not (like the EM amount), they'll let the agent know on the spot.

- With respect to HUD suggesting inspections prior to making offers, now you know why they do this. I completely understand your rationale that it would be very expensive to do inspections prior to making every offer, but to be honest, that's your problem, not theirs. Again, if you aren't comfortable with how HUD does things (like suggesting inspections prior to offers), you shouldn't be offering on HUD properties.

- Once a HUD bid is accepted, you generally have 48-55 hours to get the paperwork back to HUD. Worst case, you could be doing your inspections (or getting a contractor to look at the property) during that time. If you find issues that you think are concerning, you just don't send in the signed contract and EM, and you're out of the deal with nothing lost.

- I agree with you that the misinformation that HUD provided on the property was not good, but there's no way to know if it was intentional or just a sincere oversight. If you viewed the property and didn't notice these issues, it's possible that the HUD inspector made the same mistakes -- I would assume that HUD inspectors aren't getting paid a whole lot and probably aren't the best of inspectors out there. It's quite possible nobody intended to misrepresent anything.

- Depending on how long the property was on the market, some of the damage you saw may have occurred after the HUD inspection was done -- for example, the mold and termites. Just another reason why the damage might be there without HUD having misrepresented anything.

Personally, I think you should be more upset at your agent than you should be at HUD. Not only did your agent cost you $4000, if s/he didn't recommend an inspection prior to sending the paperwork, she wasn't looking out for your best interests (and if she did recommend the inspection and you didn't follow the advice, that's your mistake).

Again, I'm sorry for your situation, but I believe you should be taking more responsibility for what happened than you seem to want to take. Investing is a difficult profession, and if you think you can do it without doing proper due diligence (or accepting the inherent risks if you don't do due diligence), you're going to be sorely disappointed.

6
Topic locked
See this reply in the discussion

14 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    14y

    John, sorry about your EMD. But, I didn't read the purchase contract, did you? Was there an inspection contingency clause? Sounds like there wasn't. I haven't read HUD purchase agreements-is "non-permitted" work your problem, or their's(I would think yours)?
    Sorry, but items 1 through 4 just seem like crying.
    Curious, how do you turn on the water "at the house directly" without turning on the city water supply?
    Class action suit? Really
    Your next step-learn from this(read the offers you sign) and Move On!
    You'll probably find your next deal with the same level of effort you'll put into this.

    0
    Topic locked
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y

    John -

    First, sorry to hear about your situation.

    Unfortunately, I think the mistakes that you and your agent made were much worse than anything HUD did, and to be honest, and you should probably consider this a learning experience.

    Here are some more specific thoughts:

    - Did you look at the house before you put in an offer? Did you look at the house before you signed the paperwork and submitted your EM? You mentioned that there was extensive damage not indicated on the HUD paperwork, but that implies that this damage could have been found had you viewed the property in person -- if you didn't view the property prior to signing the contract, this was clearly your biggest mistake. Unfortunately, with REOs -- even if there is an inspection report -- it's pretty much "buyer beware".

    - Your agent really needed to be familiar with HUD guidelines for EM. It's not too difficult to find out HUD's EM rules, and had your agent spent 3 minutes doing an Internet search, you easily could have saved $4000. I'm not saying that it was right for HUD to keep the extra money, but I'm not surprised -- you'd probably do the same thing if you were selling a house and a buyer backed out after paying EM.

    - Sorry, but you haven't been "discriminated against" because you're an investor. HUD clearly states their EM guidelines, and clearly states that as an investor, you take additional risks over and above that of owner occupants. As an investor, you sometimes need to take risks, and this is one of those times; if you're not comfortable with the rules HUD lays out, don't make offers on HUD houses.

    - Did you agent mail the paperwork and EM to the HUD office or drop it off in person? If there is a local office, the agent should drop it off in person; when they do this, the person taking the packet will verify that everything is in order and if something is not (like the EM amount), they'll let the agent know on the spot.

    - With respect to HUD suggesting inspections prior to making offers, now you know why they do this. I completely understand your rationale that it would be very expensive to do inspections prior to making every offer, but to be honest, that's your problem, not theirs. Again, if you aren't comfortable with how HUD does things (like suggesting inspections prior to offers), you shouldn't be offering on HUD properties.

    - Once a HUD bid is accepted, you generally have 48-55 hours to get the paperwork back to HUD. Worst case, you could be doing your inspections (or getting a contractor to look at the property) during that time. If you find issues that you think are concerning, you just don't send in the signed contract and EM, and you're out of the deal with nothing lost.

    - I agree with you that the misinformation that HUD provided on the property was not good, but there's no way to know if it was intentional or just a sincere oversight. If you viewed the property and didn't notice these issues, it's possible that the HUD inspector made the same mistakes -- I would assume that HUD inspectors aren't getting paid a whole lot and probably aren't the best of inspectors out there. It's quite possible nobody intended to misrepresent anything.

    - Depending on how long the property was on the market, some of the damage you saw may have occurred after the HUD inspection was done -- for example, the mold and termites. Just another reason why the damage might be there without HUD having misrepresented anything.

    Personally, I think you should be more upset at your agent than you should be at HUD. Not only did your agent cost you $4000, if s/he didn't recommend an inspection prior to sending the paperwork, she wasn't looking out for your best interests (and if she did recommend the inspection and you didn't follow the advice, that's your mistake).

    Again, I'm sorry for your situation, but I believe you should be taking more responsibility for what happened than you seem to want to take. Investing is a difficult profession, and if you think you can do it without doing proper due diligence (or accepting the inherent risks if you don't do due diligence), you're going to be sorely disappointed.

    6
    Topic locked
  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    I have purchased dozens of HUD houses. Their rules clearly state that investor purchases are "as-is". You do not have an opportunity after HUD's acceptance to perform any type of inspection. You are supposed to do this beforehand. I disagree with HUD on this rule. I think it's ridiculous that you should go over every house with a fine toothed comb when your odds of actually purchasing it are small.

    There are a couple things that I'm confused about:

    1. Did you look at this property? It sounds like you're one of those guys that throws offers out and if one gets accepted, you then do your inspection and decide if you want the house. If that's the case, that is the wrong way to go, IMO. Whenever I get offers from investors, I make sure that they have physically looked at the house. If not, I don't waste my time with them. A lot of times I will have a house listed for $79,900 and an investor sends over an offer for $50,000 and they haven't even seen the house. I always counter these offers to $3,000,000.

    2. When was it decided that your deposit would be $5,000? There is no place on an online offer for deposit. When you make the offer online, it asks for purchase price, closing costs, commission, and your personal information. Deposit is no where on there. Once you sign the purchase agreement, it states that the deposit is $500 if under $50,000 sales price and $1,000 if above. This $5,000 is a huge mistake. HUD would have never even seen your deposit when looking at your offer.

    3. You claim that you are "discriminated" against as an investor. So what? Investors are not a protected class. HUD offers their properties to homeowners first. Investors get the sloppy seconds. HUD could legally say they will not sell to investors.

    It really sucks that you lost the $5,000, but it sounds like you will have an uphill battle trying to deal with the government.

    2
    Topic locked
  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    14y

    What you ran into is standard operating procedure for HUD in our area. You MUST do your inspections before making an offer. Once they have your earnest money, you will NEVER get it back. Their contract is not a standard contract. Unfortunately you weren't aware of the idiosyncrasies of doing business with HUD and you were using an agent who (apparently) wasn't either. The first time I made an offer on a HUD, the broker was right there with the agent and I and he explained what we were getting into. He repeatedly emphasized the risk I was taking and asked again and again if I was willing to accept this risk.

    You can, of course, fight this if you want. Unlikely you'll win. Its a lesson from the school of hard knocks.

    1
    Topic locked
  • Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    I agree with J Scott, especially about being more upset with the agent than HUD. It sounds like you knew this was your agent's first HUD contract, so hard to believe you wouldn't want someone checking the work before submitting it, and it's also hard to believe that the broker did not want some oversight over their agent's first HUD contract as they should bear some responsibility for their agents' errors, so maybe a conference with your agent and the broker would help you figure out if there is any recourse or the broker has more pull than you or your agent to help get you some satisfaction. HUD is very transparent regarding their different rules for earnest money for investors and owner occupants, so before you put in more offers, spend some more time doing some easy online research to make sure you understand the process start to finish. $5,000 is too big a price to pay for not Googling "How to Buy HUD Homes," so I would talk to the broker, research online, even write letters to the Secretary of HUD and maybe your Congressman and try to at least get the $4000 refunded.

    0
    Topic locked
  • Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2009 · 46 posts · 22 votes
    14y

    After your bid is accepted online, you and your agent are to READ a 30 page sales contract packet and sign a good majority of those pages to send in as your contract package.

    Page four of that contract clearly has the earnest money outlined at $500 for anything under $50,000 and $1000 for anything over $50,000 unless your are purchasing vacant land which requires 50% of the purchase price. Since this one did not need to be signed, you may not have seen it BUT your agent should have.

    Page five of the packet is the “Earnest Money Forfeiture Policy” which provides for, verbatim from the form:

    “Investor Purchasers
    Uninsured Sales – The purchaser will forfeit 100% of the earnest money deposit for failure to close, regardless of reason.

    Insured Sales – The purchaser will forfeit 50% of the earnest money deposit for failure to close if purchaser is determined by HUD or Direct Endorsement underwriter to be an unacceptable buyer. The purchaser will forfeit 100% of earnest money deposit if sale fails to close for any other reason."

    Page six of the packet is a form called "Important Acknowledgements Regarding the Purchase of a HUD Property." The most important aspect of this form for you is paragraph seven, copied and pasted in its entirety:

    "No warranties on PCR, MLS or appraisal information. Inspections prior to bid acceptance are visual inspections only. Buyer(s) is urged to seek a professional inspection of the property at his/her expense. Buyer's offer is not contingent upon a home inspection. If deficiencies are discovered that did not previously exist or were not previously disclosed, Buyer(s) may seek bids for repair and add the amount to escrow when using FHA financing. Inspection results are information for Buyer(s) only and will not alter the terms of sale. Neither HUD nor any of its representatives will offer any discounts or reimbursement for inspections or costs for repair of newly discovered deficiencies."

    Also of note for you on that form is the first paragraph:

    "HUD homes do not follow state or city codes. It is Buyer's responsibility to verify that the property is in compliance with city or state regulations by calling the city inspector. Buyer(s) is responsible for all costs associated with necessary inspections and/or repairs necessary to bring the property into compliance if violations are discovered."

    These are all things you should have read and understood prior to signing the contract. Right or wrong, like them or not, these are the terms you agreed to. It is unfortunate it happened but this is the risk you take as an investor dealing with buying HUD homes. This one might be best viewed as a very expensive lesson on how HUD offers work (especially for investors.) At the very least, you should at least now know what to do the moment your HUD bid is accepted before sending in the contract package with the appropriate amount of earnest money.

    3
    Topic locked
  • Real Estate Agent · Hackettstown, NJ · Member since 2011 · 206 posts · 62 votes
    14y

    John Miller, IMO you were in a buyers agency agreement, not sure why you are thinking the Sellers representative would help you out, hence the reason she will not give you paperwork!

    I would go after your Buyers agents Broker, but in a non-threatening way at first, that you will file a complaint with the Board.

    They do have E&O insurance.

    When I did my first deal as an agent for my investor, I found the paperwork to be more straight forward, than a regular P&O agreement.

    1
    Topic locked
  • FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 357 votes
    14y

    I work with a "HUD" agent who is extremely experienced with HUD.
    I put in the bid, if HUD accepts it, I go and look at the house.
    You have 48 hours until the signed Contract and the EMD has to be in the HUD office.
    If the numbers don't work, then I will NOT send in the EMD and the signed Contract.
    The agent advised me to do it this way.

    Raymond

    2
    Topic locked
  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Raymond B.:
    I work with a "HUD" agent who is extremely experienced with HUD.
    I put in the bid, if HUD accepts it, I go and look at the house.
    You have 48 hours until the signed Contract and the EMD has to be in the HUD office.
    If the numbers don't work, then I will NOT send in the EMD and the signed Contract.
    The agent advised me to do it this way.

    Raymond

    Won't HUD stop accepting offers from you if you keep doing this? I've found that if I look at 10 HUD houses, I might want to buy one. Most are overpriced junk. How many times have you had an offer accepted and then blown them off?

    0
    Topic locked
  • FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 357 votes
    14y

    Rob K,
    Only once, where I did not follow through with the contract and EMD.
    After that one time, to save the agents time, he now gives me the code, to get into the lock box.

    Raymond

    0
    Topic locked
  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    14y

    John Miller Congratulations on enrolling in your first class on investing in HUD homes - and for paying off your entire $5,000 student loan. What you do now will determine the grade that will be put on your report card.

    If I were you I'd sit down with the agent's broker and lay out the entire situation and see what s/he says - a sort of informal mediation. At the very least this should also become a learning experience for the agent as well... lest he do this same thing/mistake to another buyer in the future. It will also help you if you step out of the victim position and start to look at what YOU did wrong... as hard as this often is. A little preliminary reading on HUD's website would have saved you alot of heartache. Real estate is a big boys game, and if plan on hanging your hat on an agent's experience, make sure they have some. I tend to follow Reagan's advice: Trust but verify.

    1
    Topic locked
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Rob K:

    Won't HUD stop accepting offers from you if you keep doing this?

    I used to wonder the same thing, and it appears the answer is no (HUD won't stop you). I know of a large investment team here in the southeast that makes literally thousands of offers per month on HUD properties using an automated system to determine price (they wholesale). In many cases, they don't go through the purchases if they get them (after they look at the property), and yet, HUD hasn't stopped awarding them winning bids.

    That's just one piece of empirical data, but it's definitely holding true in that case...

    0
    Topic locked
  • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    To the original post, I do think your agent is really the one to blame here. They are supposed to be the professionals and, if they had no clue how HUD deals worked, should have passed on representing you in the offer until they figured it out.

    The first mistake they had was not informing you of your rights to rescind the offer after an inspection. HUD does not refund their EMD - unless they've had some damage done to the house while the deal is in play. Then they pull the deal and will refund the money and re-list the house.

    I had one deal that was 2 days from closing and some minor damage (a little copper was taken) was done. The listing agent called mine and said he was supposed to report it but asked if I wanted to accept it. Given it was likely going to cause them to re-list, I said no. A few hundred bucks in repairs wasn't worth the risk in losing it.

    The second mistake the agent made was in earnest money deposit amount. Quite honestly, I would go back to them and demand that they eat half of that mistake. They're the ones that are supposed to be licensed and they should have known the deposit rules. under 50k, 500, 50-100k, 1,000, etc.

    Putting in an offer with HUD at more than that gives you no advantage whatsoever. HUD doesn't care about anything in the offer (cash, finance, emd, etc) other than what is the net number to HUD.

    The agent should have researched HUD deals a lot more before they started representing themselves as a HUD agent that can put in HUD offers. At the very least, they should have checked with someone in their office or in the business to get the lay of the land.

    To me, that was the agent's absolute minimum responsibility here and they were completely lacking in doing so. Again, I would hit the agent up for half of the mistake. The most you should be out is half of that EMD mistake plus the 1k that HUD would have required (i.e. agent should refund you 2k for their gross negligence).

    But I dont' see any way in the world that HUD should have to you refund you any money. Their rules are very clear for anybody to review.

    1
    Topic locked