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Updated 4 months ago, 09/03/2024

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Kay Elizabeth
  • New to Real Estate
  • PA
0
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2
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Sheriff sale (school tax foreclosure) - PA

Kay Elizabeth
  • New to Real Estate
  • PA
Posted

Hi! Couple questions about sheriff sales in PA. What are the terms of the “redemption period” of Montgomery county, PA? Can someone tell me if this is correct: if the owner redeems they have to pay the full bid price, fees and court costs, 10% interest, and any “necessary” repairs (what constitutes that)?

Question #2 When getting homeowners insurance, how does one answer questions about the condition of the home if they’re not exactly sure?

Question #3 do people ever buy title insurance for a flip after it’s purchased, and at that point is it worth it? 

Question #4 where can you find current mortgage balances on a home? 

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488
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Bob Reinhard
Lender
  • Lender
  • Patterson, NY
186
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488
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Bob Reinhard
Lender
  • Lender
  • Patterson, NY
Replied

1. Without providing legal advice, this may help. All legal interpretations deserve the attention of legal counsel

Pennsylvania's Real Estate Tax Sale Law says that you can't redeem your home after a sale. (72 P.S. § 5860.501). But you might be able to redeem in some circumstances.

Some Counties Permit Redemption

County commissioners have the discretion to allow the redemption of property the county purchased at a tax sale if all taxes with interest and costs due, less any penalties, are paid. (72 P.S. § 5879). Also, if the county purchased the property at a tax sale, commissioners have the discretion to enter into a compromise agreement with the owner for less than the whole amount due, subject to court confirmation. (72 P.S. § 5876).

Under the state's Municipal Claims and Tax Lien law, some counties provide a nine-month redemption period during which you may redeem the home. (53 P.S. § 7293). A vacant property, however, isn't eligible for redemption. (53 P.S. § 7293(c)).

If the county allows the redemption of property the county purchased at a tax sale, you'll have to pay all taxes plus interest and costs due, less any penalties, to redeem. (72 P.S. § 5879).

2. Talk it over with your insurance broker

3. Title insurance protects you from adverse claims, whatever that means. Only tax claims are extinguished on a tax sale.

4. There is no direct way. Look at the recorded mortgage, interest rate, and term, and calculate for yourself.

Much success.

Bob

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Kay Elizabeth
  • New to Real Estate
  • PA
0
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2
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Kay Elizabeth
  • New to Real Estate
  • PA
Replied

Thanks for the info! @Bob Reinhard

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13,450
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8,349
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Steve Babiak
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Audubon, PA
8,349
Votes |
13,450
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Steve Babiak
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Audubon, PA
Replied

Everything from the post by @Bob Reinhard that mentions “72 PS” is irrelevant to this particular purchase - properties sold under “72 PS” are sold by the county Tax Claim Bureau, not by the sheriff. The stuff he mentions from “53 PS” is pertinent - properties sold under “53 PS” are sold by the sheriff.

There is a nine month redemption period that starts from the date the sheriff’s deed is recorded. That particular redemption period is only available to owners where all the statutory requirements are met. There is another “loophole” redemption period - this is from a court ruling regarding when an owner can redeem even when they do not meet the statutory requirements for the nine month redemption period.

As to purchasing title insurance for a property purchased at sheriff sale, some people say to do so, others say don’t bother. When you get the sheriff’s proposed distribution of funds, there will be a copy of a title search that was performed by a title company selected by the sheriff; that title company is possibly the best place to go to ask whether you should buy a title policy - they did the search and should be willing to insure. But keep in mind they sell title insurance so they might only encourage that you buy a policy. If everything you are worried about is an exception or an exclusion on a title policy, then your title insurance isn’t going to ease your worries.

You mentioned this is a flip. The resale of this property won’t get title insurance from most (if not all) title insurers until 12 months from the date of the sheriff sale; they assume three months to record the sheriff’s deed. Although this is technically inaccurate (I saw a case where a sheriff sale of this sort was challenged and the challenge lawsuit took 11 months, deed recording came after that), that is the typical practical waiting period to get the title insurance for the resale.

Whatever the mortgage balance, that’s now your obligation to get paid off; before even bidding on any sheriff sale property you should have a good idea of any remaining mortgage balance(s). Bob’s earlier post had given the most reasonable way to estimate.

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Chad U.
  • Investor
  • Boca Raton, FL
1,113
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1,722
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Chad U.
  • Investor
  • Boca Raton, FL
Replied
Quote from @Steve Babiak:

Everything from the post by @Bob Reinhard that mentions “72 PS” is irrelevant to this particular purchase - properties sold under “72 PS” are sold by the county Tax Claim Bureau, not by the sheriff. The stuff he mentions from “53 PS” is pertinent - properties sold under “53 PS” are sold by the sheriff.

There is a nine month redemption period that starts from the date the sheriff’s deed is recorded. That particular redemption period is only available to owners where all the statutory requirements are met. There is another “loophole” redemption period - this is from a court ruling regarding when an owner can redeem even when they do not meet the statutory requirements for the nine month redemption period.

As to purchasing title insurance for a property purchased at sheriff sale, some people say to do so, others say don’t bother. When you get the sheriff’s proposed distribution of funds, there will be a copy of a title search that was performed by a title company selected by the sheriff; that title company is possibly the best place to go to ask whether you should buy a title policy - they did the search and should be willing to insure. But keep in mind they sell title insurance so they might only encourage that you buy a policy. If everything you are worried about is an exception or an exclusion on a title policy, then your title insurance isn’t going to ease your worries.

You mentioned this is a flip. The resale of this property won’t get title insurance from most (if not all) title insurers until 12 months from the date of the sheriff sale; they assume three months to record the sheriff’s deed. Although this is technically inaccurate (I saw a case where a sheriff sale of this sort was challenged and the challenge lawsuit took 11 months, deed recording came after that), that is the typical practical waiting period to get the title insurance for the resale.

Whatever the mortgage balance, that’s now your obligation to get paid off; before even bidding on any sheriff sale property you should have a good idea of any remaining mortgage balance(s). Bob’s earlier post had given the most reasonable way to estimate.

Hi Steve, long time no converse here on BP.  Per your post above, are you saying that the mortgage wouldn't be wiped in a judicial tax sale by the Sheriff?  

User Stats

13,450
Posts
8,349
Votes
Steve Babiak
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Audubon, PA
8,349
Votes |
13,450
Posts
Steve Babiak
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Audubon, PA
Replied
Quote from @Chad U.:
Quote from @Steve Babiak:

Everything from the post by @Bob Reinhard that mentions “72 PS” is irrelevant to this particular purchase - properties sold under “72 PS” are sold by the county Tax Claim Bureau, not by the sheriff. The stuff he mentions from “53 PS” is pertinent - properties sold under “53 PS” are sold by the sheriff.

There is a nine month redemption period that starts from the date the sheriff’s deed is recorded. That particular redemption period is only available to owners where all the statutory requirements are met. There is another “loophole” redemption period - this is from a court ruling regarding when an owner can redeem even when they do not meet the statutory requirements for the nine month redemption period.

As to purchasing title insurance for a property purchased at sheriff sale, some people say to do so, others say don’t bother. When you get the sheriff’s proposed distribution of funds, there will be a copy of a title search that was performed by a title company selected by the sheriff; that title company is possibly the best place to go to ask whether you should buy a title policy - they did the search and should be willing to insure. But keep in mind they sell title insurance so they might only encourage that you buy a policy. If everything you are worried about is an exception or an exclusion on a title policy, then your title insurance isn’t going to ease your worries.

You mentioned this is a flip. The resale of this property won’t get title insurance from most (if not all) title insurers until 12 months from the date of the sheriff sale; they assume three months to record the sheriff’s deed. Although this is technically inaccurate (I saw a case where a sheriff sale of this sort was challenged and the challenge lawsuit took 11 months, deed recording came after that), that is the typical practical waiting period to get the title insurance for the resale.

Whatever the mortgage balance, that’s now your obligation to get paid off; before even bidding on any sheriff sale property you should have a good idea of any remaining mortgage balance(s). Bob’s earlier post had given the most reasonable way to estimate.

Hi Steve, long time no converse here on BP.  Per your post above, are you saying that the mortgage wouldn't be wiped in a judicial tax sale by the Sheriff?  
Chad,

In PA, when a tax sale is conducted by the Sheriff, these are first subject to “upset bid”, where liens remain in place - even though conceptually all sheriff sales are considered “judicial” in a way, these are initially only offered with liens remaining in place. Those tax sales will be exposed to “upset bid” for several sheriff sale dates. Once it has been exposed a number of times for “upset bid” with no bidders, a “free and clear” sale can be held (after the attorney for the taxing authority gets the judge to agree to divest all liens). Of course, as is always the case, a lien will not be divested if the lien holder has not been given proper notice of the sheriff sale - so even a “free and clear” can have an encumbrance when a failure to properly serve notice happens.

Hopefully that was sufficiently clear; if not, post more questions and I’ll do my best to offer clarification.

User Stats

1,722
Posts
1,113
Votes
Chad U.
  • Investor
  • Boca Raton, FL
1,113
Votes |
1,722
Posts
Chad U.
  • Investor
  • Boca Raton, FL
Replied
Quote from @Steve Babiak:
Quote from @Chad U.:
Quote from @Steve Babiak:

Everything from the post by @Bob Reinhard that mentions “72 PS” is irrelevant to this particular purchase - properties sold under “72 PS” are sold by the county Tax Claim Bureau, not by the sheriff. The stuff he mentions from “53 PS” is pertinent - properties sold under “53 PS” are sold by the sheriff.

There is a nine month redemption period that starts from the date the sheriff’s deed is recorded. That particular redemption period is only available to owners where all the statutory requirements are met. There is another “loophole” redemption period - this is from a court ruling regarding when an owner can redeem even when they do not meet the statutory requirements for the nine month redemption period.

As to purchasing title insurance for a property purchased at sheriff sale, some people say to do so, others say don’t bother. When you get the sheriff’s proposed distribution of funds, there will be a copy of a title search that was performed by a title company selected by the sheriff; that title company is possibly the best place to go to ask whether you should buy a title policy - they did the search and should be willing to insure. But keep in mind they sell title insurance so they might only encourage that you buy a policy. If everything you are worried about is an exception or an exclusion on a title policy, then your title insurance isn’t going to ease your worries.

You mentioned this is a flip. The resale of this property won’t get title insurance from most (if not all) title insurers until 12 months from the date of the sheriff sale; they assume three months to record the sheriff’s deed. Although this is technically inaccurate (I saw a case where a sheriff sale of this sort was challenged and the challenge lawsuit took 11 months, deed recording came after that), that is the typical practical waiting period to get the title insurance for the resale.

Whatever the mortgage balance, that’s now your obligation to get paid off; before even bidding on any sheriff sale property you should have a good idea of any remaining mortgage balance(s). Bob’s earlier post had given the most reasonable way to estimate.

Hi Steve, long time no converse here on BP.  Per your post above, are you saying that the mortgage wouldn't be wiped in a judicial tax sale by the Sheriff?  
Chad,

In PA, when a tax sale is conducted by the Sheriff, these are first subject to “upset bid”, where liens remain in place - even though conceptually all sheriff sales are considered “judicial” in a way, these are initially only offered with liens remaining in place. Those tax sales will be exposed to “upset bid” for several sheriff sale dates. Once it has been exposed a number of times for “upset bid” with no bidders, a “free and clear” sale can be held (after the attorney for the taxing authority gets the judge to agree to divest all liens). Of course, as is always the case, a lien will not be divested if the lien holder has not been given proper notice of the sheriff sale - so even a “free and clear” can have an encumbrance when a failure to properly serve notice happens.

Hopefully that was sufficiently clear; if not, post more questions and I’ll do my best to offer clarification.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the detailed response! 

I am familiar with both upset and judicial tax sales in PA, where the former is subject to all pre-existing liens, and the latter generally wipes most if not all out.  Seems like the more rural counties use this system?   However, the particular property that this tax sale I was referring to is located in Allegheny county where the procedure appeared to be the latter judicial sale.   Hence I thought all liens and mortgages (including ours) would get wiped out. 

I had read the state statute 53 P.S. mentioned above several times, and it does mention that an initial sale will be held subject all encumbrances, and if no bidders then would proceed to a free and clear sale.  Where I got confused is that this particular tax sale has been postponed for over a decade (due to owner filing numerous BK's, our foreclosure included), and from the dozens of docket entries appeared to be a judicial sale that I'm familiar with.   

What I didn't realize is that a "Petition for Rule to Show Cause Why Property Should Not Be Sold...." has to be filed by the tax authority attorney to get a free and clear sale, so it is still in "upset" sale territory.  I actually attended the sale today, however got postponed again as the owner is trying to sell the property (and hopefully make us whole).  

Thanks again.  


User Stats

13,450
Posts
8,349
Votes
Steve Babiak
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Audubon, PA
8,349
Votes |
13,450
Posts
Steve Babiak
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Audubon, PA
Replied
Quote from @Chad U.:
Quote from @Steve Babiak:
Quote from @Chad U.:
Quote from @Steve Babiak:

Everything from the post by @Bob Reinhard that mentions “72 PS” is irrelevant to this particular purchase - properties sold under “72 PS” are sold by the county Tax Claim Bureau, not by the sheriff. The stuff he mentions from “53 PS” is pertinent - properties sold under “53 PS” are sold by the sheriff.

There is a nine month redemption period that starts from the date the sheriff’s deed is recorded. That particular redemption period is only available to owners where all the statutory requirements are met. There is another “loophole” redemption period - this is from a court ruling regarding when an owner can redeem even when they do not meet the statutory requirements for the nine month redemption period.

As to purchasing title insurance for a property purchased at sheriff sale, some people say to do so, others say don’t bother. When you get the sheriff’s proposed distribution of funds, there will be a copy of a title search that was performed by a title company selected by the sheriff; that title company is possibly the best place to go to ask whether you should buy a title policy - they did the search and should be willing to insure. But keep in mind they sell title insurance so they might only encourage that you buy a policy. If everything you are worried about is an exception or an exclusion on a title policy, then your title insurance isn’t going to ease your worries.

You mentioned this is a flip. The resale of this property won’t get title insurance from most (if not all) title insurers until 12 months from the date of the sheriff sale; they assume three months to record the sheriff’s deed. Although this is technically inaccurate (I saw a case where a sheriff sale of this sort was challenged and the challenge lawsuit took 11 months, deed recording came after that), that is the typical practical waiting period to get the title insurance for the resale.

Whatever the mortgage balance, that’s now your obligation to get paid off; before even bidding on any sheriff sale property you should have a good idea of any remaining mortgage balance(s). Bob’s earlier post had given the most reasonable way to estimate.

Hi Steve, long time no converse here on BP.  Per your post above, are you saying that the mortgage wouldn't be wiped in a judicial tax sale by the Sheriff?  
Chad,

In PA, when a tax sale is conducted by the Sheriff, these are first subject to “upset bid”, where liens remain in place - even though conceptually all sheriff sales are considered “judicial” in a way, these are initially only offered with liens remaining in place. Those tax sales will be exposed to “upset bid” for several sheriff sale dates. Once it has been exposed a number of times for “upset bid” with no bidders, a “free and clear” sale can be held (after the attorney for the taxing authority gets the judge to agree to divest all liens). Of course, as is always the case, a lien will not be divested if the lien holder has not been given proper notice of the sheriff sale - so even a “free and clear” can have an encumbrance when a failure to properly serve notice happens.

Hopefully that was sufficiently clear; if not, post more questions and I’ll do my best to offer clarification.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the detailed response! 

I am familiar with both upset and judicial tax sales in PA, where the former is subject to all pre-existing liens, and the latter generally wipes most if not all out.  Seems like the more rural counties use this system?   However, the particular property that this tax sale I was referring to is located in Allegheny county where the procedure appeared to be the latter judicial sale.   Hence I thought all liens and mortgages (including ours) would get wiped out. 

I had read the state statute 53 P.S. mentioned above several times, and it does mention that an initial sale will be held subject all encumbrances, and if no bidders then would proceed to a free and clear sale.  Where I got confused is that this particular tax sale has been postponed for over a decade (due to owner filing numerous BK's, our foreclosure included), and from the dozens of docket entries appeared to be a judicial sale that I'm familiar with.   

What I didn't realize is that a "Petition for Rule to Show Cause Why Property Should Not Be Sold...." has to be filed by the tax authority attorney to get a free and clear sale, so it is still in "upset" sale territory.  I actually attended the sale today, however got postponed again as the owner is trying to sell the property (and hopefully make us whole).  

Thanks again.  


There is always confusion in PA tax sales due to in some cases it is conducted by the Tax Claim Bureau and in other cases it is conducted as a sheriff sale. Both types have that initial “upset sale” where liens remain in place. And both have a “free and clear” sale (assuming lien holders get notification). Redemption rights are the thing that only can happen when it’s conducted as a sheriff sale; Tax Claim Bureau sales have no redemption rights.

Anyone needing more clarification can feel free to post their questions.