Should I invest in syndication or...

Should I invest in syndication or...

Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes

Hi all-

As retirement inches nearer, I'm finding myself spending a LOT of time on planning, and am determined to make our money work hard for us. We live in Dubai, planning to move to either US or maybe Brisbane, still undecided, as tons of factors that play into it. 

I'm American, 51, hubby is Australian, 56. We live in Dubai. We have a house in Oregon with $200k equity, rented at $2200 per month, $400 positive cash flow, and planning to refi and cash out $100k to buy a few more houses. Because I live here, the refi has been tricky, but am told by Dec I can do this, so will save on interest, and the house is in a steadily appreciating market.  Also have $60k now to play with, and another $70k by July 2021, saved at the rate of $7k per month, all ready to go into real estate, and not including the refi cash. So roughly $230 to invest in real estate in the next year. I can also pull out some 401k money, but prefer not to.

The plan has been to buy some single or multi family homes in the Rochester, NY area, as that's where my family is and I know the market fairly well. But, there are limited opportunities for equity uplift in terms of appreciation, unless I get lucky and am patient till the right deal comes along. And I am slightly hesitant to do massive rehabbing from out of the country. So, I was hoping to get a nice sfh in a great school district, put maybe $10k of work into it from here, and rent it out, should get around 9-10% COC and some appreciation, maybe 2-3% a year, plus a slight uplift on the cosmetic fixes. We could buy 4 - 5 houses under this model.

But I'm wondering if it makes more sense to sink some cash instead into a well reputed syndication, aiming for a 3-4 year exit, and derive the same tax benefits & appreciation without being a long distance landlord.

We ultimately want to be able to move back, at least to the US, to do some more deals actively, but my husband won't be able to be sponsored into a new job, as that is very rare, so will get his green card while there, ie, can't really count on a job until after we get there, but to be honest, we'd rather have set up some deals so we could just have a model where we can not have to worry about him getting a job at all, and working for ourselves in real estate investment.

And in the meantime, we are also considering moving ultimately to Brisbane, but we can't build that sort of portfolio up there like we can in the US, plus I'm not familiar with the market/taxes/ways to do deals there like I am in the US. 

I should add one more detail. While living here, my husband is able to benefit from 0 capital gains on earnings, so, for example, we could instead put this all into an offshore investment account, and sell off everything prior to leaving here, zero gains. BUT, the market is making me pretty nervous, so I prefer to put the money to work in real estate, which I think is generally a far better safe haven. We are still putting money into the market, but far more allocated for real estate.

Any thoughts much appreciated!

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Rental Property Investor · Newport News, VA · Member since 2018 · 264 posts · 130 votes
6y

@Elizabeth M Williams

It depends on what you want your retirement to look like.

In my experience single family homes/small multifamily = job. Syndications/owning notes = passive income.

If you want to learn more about syndications, I recommend reading The Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book by Joe Fairless or you could connect with me on here.

Best,

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  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    6y

    I should add, we are behind in our retirement plan, hence the need to really play catch up now, and be pretty fearless while we still can. 

  • Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    Hi there, we too invest in Rochester.  If you need any property management in the future please feel free to reach out!

  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Marissa Parker:

    Hi there, we too invest in Rochester.  If you need any property management in the future please feel free to reach out!

    Absolutely will do! 

  • Cory CarlsonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · OR · Member since 2018 · 311 posts · 226 votes
    6y

    I find syndication and/or partnership provides a higher return in OR. I know you mentioned interest in investing elsewhere but perhaps this illustration helps narrow down your goals and answers your questions. This is copy and pasted from an email i sent a prospective client last week, so if its slightly out of context, i apologize. I feel that it fits considering my client and I touched on a very similar question.

    Lets start with the PROPERTY VALUATION & RETURN PROJECTIONS sheet that allows me to analyze three properties side-by-side with sub categories using current and pro-forma scenarios. Sheet 1 named, PVRP_RESIDENTIAL is outlining three single family home scenario’s varying from an all cash to moderate leverage position. Beyond the numbers, there is a strategy conversation to have here on the difference between several single family homes and the multifamily scenario. Example being, owning three houses that equal $1,000,000 in value, or owning one $1,000,000 multifamily. Simply put, capital/equity growth is more difficult in the single family scenario - that is, maneuvering the upside in a single family home does not fall into the “financial picture/income approach” but valuing the building based on what a buyer would pay ie. using comps. So strategically, the single family scenario is a game of comparables and more convoluted than the multifamily/apartment “income approach” valuation.
    Lets dive into a few of the take-aways from our PVRP_RESIDENTIAL:

    Residential 1:

    • $350,000 single family home with no debt
    • Market rents for properties like this are around $1800
    • Operating expenses are relatively low, tenants pay utilities and i’ve a assume a owner/manager situation for all three scenarios
    • No debt, means no principle pay down, higher cashflow in dollars, lower After-tax cashflow return due to taxes
    • Projected year 1 returns would be as follows for this illustration:
      • Pre-tax Cashflow $13,070 (3.73%), Pre-tax + Pay Down $13,070 (3.74%), After-tax + Pay Down $12,749 (3.64%) and Total Return $22,551 (6.44%)

    Residential 2:

    • $350,000 single family home with low leverage (50% Loan-to-value)
    • Leave market rent and operating expense variables the same to maintain a like-kind analysis
    • You could theoretically buy two of these, so for illustration purposes multiply each return metric by 2
    • Projected year 1 returns would be as follows:
      • Pre-tax Cashflow $3,640 (2.08%), Pre-tax + Pay Down $6,999 (4.00%), After-tax + Pay Down $7,224 (4.13%) and Total Return $17,026 (9.73%)

    Residential 3:

    • $350,000 single family home with moderate leverage (70% Loan-to-value)
    • Again rent and expenses are fixed
    • You could theoretically buy 3 of these with your available capital
    • Projected year 1 returns would be as follows:
      • Pre-tax cashflow -$132 (-0.13%), Pre-tax Cashflow + Pay Down $4,570 (4.35%), After-tax + Pay Down $5,014 (4.77%) and Total Return $14,816 (14.11%)

    The take away here are the fundamentals of leverage.

    Sheet 2, named PVRP_MULTIFAMILY will outline some current on-market opportunities. As expected, inventory is low but I picked the ones with potential to utilize upside.
    Sunridge Townhomes - 9 Unit Multifamily Syndication/Partnership in SE Portland *Also see QVIA_SUNRIDGE attached for two investor breakdown

    • $1,425,000 purchase price with 65% Loan-to-Value (Approx. ~$256,000 cash to close for both investors)
    • Current rents are stabilized at $1,247/unit per month with utility bill-backs in place
    • Will be hitting the market after two vacant units are filled
    • Projected year 1 returns assuming a 50% equity position and 9% effective tax rate:
      • Pre-tax Cashflow $13,108 (5.35%), After-tax Cashflow $12,975 (5.30%), After-tax + Pay Down $21,342 (8.71%), and Total Return (After-tax + Pay down + Appreciation-3%) $42,342 (17.28%)
    • These are the highest returns between all properties in these analysis

    Duplex - 2 Unit Multifamily in Milwaukie

    • $450,000 strike price with 65% Loan-to-value (Approx. ~$166,500 cash to close)
    • Current rents are $1425 and $950 so present upside potential with existing long-term tenants
    • Been on the market a long time because its overpriced (list was $535,000, now $495,000)
    • A fairly turn-key property and i have a list of capital improvements including furnace, roof, paint and fencing
    • Projected returns once rents reach full market:
      • Pre-tax Cashflow $6,107 (3.88%), Pre-tax + Pay Down $11,720 (7.44%), After-tax + Pay Down $11,745 (7.46%) and Total Return $24,855 (15.79%)

    4 unit Multifamily in Clackamas

    • Strike price of $750,000 with 70% Loan-to-value requires approximately ~$234,000 cash to close
    • Current scheduled monthly rents are $1,388/per unit
    • Lots of updates and capital expenditures done, not the greatest location 
    • Projected year 1 returns (before achieving full-market):
      • Pre-tax Cashflow $11,489 (5.11%), Pre-tax + Pay Down $21,565 (9.58%), After-tax + Pay Down $21,424 (9.52%) and Total Return $45,291 (20.13%)


    In high entry barrier markets like Portland, I am finding the small 2-4 unit multifamily properties that hit the market to be mostly priced out. Hopefully this is not the case for for your NY market which you appear to be familiar with. 

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  • Rental Property Investor · RVA · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    I would definitely go with syndications. No matter how you slice it, buying properties from the other side of the planet is going to have many time zone related difficulties. As an investor, once your investment is made your time commitment is basically zero. Monitor the progress, review financials, get on monthly or quarterly update calls with the sponsor- that's about it. No managing the property manager on your end. All else being equal, that's a big advantage.
    No knock on Rochester, but syndications would also enable you to more comfortably diversify beyond that area. 

  • Financial Advisor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 294 posts · 165 votes
    6y

    @Elizabeth M Williams

    Strong syndications certainly would be easier from across the globe.

    It generally requires meeting the accredited investor status which requires a 1M net worth.

    Don’t over extend yourself trying to play catch-up... we are in turbulent times.

    Good luck!

  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    6y

    Might be interested in a partnership there, as NY taxes are high, but tbh Portland is a bit of a mess right now, and not sure how that will affect the market. Maybe it won't, but if I were to invest in Portland area again, the type of tenants are crucial for me, as a long distance investor. Not a fan of some of those locations. Happy to connect with you to discuss :)

  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    6y
    Had a very long talk with 2 syndications yesterday. Think we are going to invest a smaller amount in one of the deals, and the other deal we have a few months to decide, but we still will have cash to buy a few other deals within the year, too. After grilling them with questions, it is starting to seem like a no brainer. Using $25k as an example. In a syndication, that's your upfront cost, period. In a sfh or multi home purchase, closing & legal fees to add on top, plus any minor improvements. No biggie, just a consideration.

    The issue is that as foreign residents, we are qualifying for a higher interest rate, so in the best case scenario, with my broker working hard for us, we will get a 10% COC, and that's totally doable, but the market there is hot so houses are in bidding wars, which I don't like. There is a lot of rental demand in the area, which I do like. Appreciation should be around 3% per year. Any other opportunities that give better COC are either class c tenants, which I can't manage from here, homes needing work, which I also can't manage from here, or tenants who will stay for a year or two and buy their own home, as rates are so low.

    I have managed to be a long distance landlord for my Portland place for 9 years, and visit it once a year, and have been very lucky to have amazing tenants, but I can't count on that. 

    So yes, syndication, with class a shares giving 10% and class b around 7% (with equity stake, as well), are looking quite interesting. So much so, that when we return to the US, might want to do one, myself :)

    Originally posted by @Taylor L.:

    I would definitely go with syndications. No matter how you slice it, buying properties from the other side of the planet is going to have many time zone related difficulties. As an investor, once your investment is made your time commitment is basically zero. Monitor the progress, review financials, get on monthly or quarterly update calls with the sponsor- that's about it. No managing the property manager on your end. All else being equal, that's a big advantage.
    No knock on Rochester, but syndications would also enable you to more comfortably diversify beyond that area. 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    6y

    Thank you! Our income gives us accredited status. Yes, this stuff keeps me up at night. The coronavirus has created a crazy time of future uncertainty, and created a completely new set of working rules, ie people are leaving the cities for affordable sfh in the burbs, as they get to work from home. Retail & office spaces will have to reinvent themselves/repurpose their use, the momentum investors are driving market sectors like tech through the roof, people are moving from stocks to gold and silver, or real estate, which then leads to market analysts posting all sorts of mixed messages about best strategies for growth and preservation. It's a lot of pressure to try to grow our portfolio in these crazy times. 

  • Ian IppolitoBusiness Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth M Williams:

    Thank you! Our income gives us accredited status. Yes, this stuff keeps me up at night. The coronavirus has created a crazy time of future uncertainty, and created a completely new set of working rules, ie people are leaving the cities for affordable sfh in the burbs, as they get to work from home. Retail & office spaces will have to reinvent themselves/repurpose their use, the momentum investors are driving market sectors like tech through the roof, people are moving from stocks to gold and silver, or real estate, which then leads to market analysts posting all sorts of mixed messages about best strategies for growth and preservation. It's a lot of pressure to try to grow our portfolio in these crazy times. 

    Elizabeth, I live off of my investment portfolio and have both direct real estate and passive (i.e. syndication/crowdfunding) investments in it. 

    And many will disagree with me, but personally I would never even consider investing in direct real estate remotely even in a different city...let alone across the world. When you do that, your financial situation is misaligned with the people who are serving you (from your remote agent to your remote property manager to your remote contractors to perhaps your remote turnkey provider if you choose to go that route). And while there are many, many ways to get ripped off, there are very few chances of ever detecting them until it's too late.

    I have personally benefited from this dynamic by purchasing properties from remote landlords who had no clue how bad things had gotten on their properties (and ultimately I got some very good deals). But, I would never volunteer to put myself in their shoes.

    Going with passive investing isn't a complete piece of cake though, as you will have to educate yourself on the different asset classes, how to do due diligence etc.

    Regarding investing in the current time: yes this is a moment of great uncertainty. I'm not a registered financial advisor, so this is just my personal opinion. I believe there is still a lot we don't know about this virus and so there are several potential downside scenarios that could play out. If they do, they would be devastating to certain real estate asset classes.

    Also, I think a lot of people don't fully appreciate that up to this point there has been massive but temporary government stimulus ($1200 free checks written out to most people, $600 per month extra unemployment) and huge but temporary support (moratoriums on evictions and foreclosures). This has held off a huge wave of real estate defaults that would normally be occurring under the massive levels of unemployment we currently have. Unfortunately virtually all of these positive things have just recently expired and so far there has been no agreement on doing another round. So this introduces additional potential risk (I call this the "financial cliff" we are facing).

    As a conservative investor, I am personally waiting a couple of months until there's more clarity on all of the above before deploying into real estate. And I am instead focusing on asset classes that are not directly correlated to the business cycle, or are covid-19 resistant.

    Maybe everything will turn out great and that would be wonderful. I personally feel there's a good chance that there will be the opportunity to pick up real estate assets that are distressed/dislocated at once in a generation discounts, so I am keeping cash available for that. But I could be wrong.

    And an investor that's more aggressive and/or more optimistic about the economic situation would disagree with me and be fine with deploying into real estate now.

    Hope that helps and good luck. 

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  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    By good school district in Rochester NY area, are you thinking Pittsford or Brighton?  The high property taxes make cash flowing quite difficult, but the tenant pool is pretty great in those suburbs.  In the city, Southwedge and North Winton Village have appreciated well (not California level, but strong for western/central NY) since I started investing there in 2004.   

  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    6y

    Thank you for your comment! Yes, on the whole, I agree with you. In the stock market, I spent a few months digging deep into educating myself (as I always took a pretty laissez faire approach to retirement allocations) in both the US, Australian & now Ireland domiciled (we have an offshore acct in my husband's name whose gains have zero tax obligation as long as we live in Dubai) markets. I have endeavored to strike the balance between solid growth and capital preservation, so it's a lot of pressure to not screw up, and none of us has a crystal ball. I have tried to invest in stocks and ETFs that I think will be as recession-proof as possible, and have diversified into other markets & across many sectors to account for the election, more outbreak, economy tanking, new business models, etc etc etc. It's pretty exhausting and at the same time funny because at the end of the day we have no idea what the future holds. 

    With respect to long distance landlording, you're right, and I've had both good and bad luck, and as long as I'm living here, would only consider areas where we have family nearby to keep an eye on things. Plus the two houses we have have big deposits, and have great tenants.

    After reading a lot of threads, might be worth waiting to see what the market looks like post election, but I still think the syndication I'm considering feels like as safe a bet as anything else in the market now. Huge apt complex in DFW area.

    Fingers and toes crossed for us all!

  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Darius Ogloza:

    By good school district in Rochester NY area, are you thinking Pittsford or Brighton?  The high property taxes make cash flowing quite difficult, but the tenant pool is pretty great in those suburbs.  In the city, Southwedge and North Winton Village have appreciated well (not California level, but strong for western/central NY) since I started investing there in 2004.   

    Yes, those are a few areas we are considering, just because we know that, as you said, they are stable areas, tenant-wise. The taxes are a killer, but we potentially might live there, or down in Geneseo, so something like a student home in Geneseo works nicely, as we can live there if we want, or just live there in summers and rent it out the rest of the year. It's a very different market than other areas, and because people are leaving NYC for work from home roles in nice suburban areas, the deals that I could normally get into are flying. Had 2 that we would loved to have bought in Pittsford, and they went over ask within a day, with multiple offers.

    I love the South Wedge area, and happy to buy there, would be less expensive than Pittsford, too!

  • Rental Property Investor · Newport News, VA · Member since 2018 · 264 posts · 130 votes
    6y

    @Elizabeth M Williams

    It depends on what you want your retirement to look like.

    In my experience single family homes/small multifamily = job. Syndications/owning notes = passive income.

    If you want to learn more about syndications, I recommend reading The Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book by Joe Fairless or you could connect with me on here.

    Best,

  • Real Estate Consultant · Member since 2019 · 79 posts · 63 votes
    6y

    Originally posted by @Jesse Daconta:

    @Elizabeth M Williams

    It depends on what you want your retirement to look like.

    In my experience single family homes/small multifamily = job. Syndications/owning notes = passive income.

    If you want to learn more about syndications, I recommend reading The Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book by Joe Fairless or you could connect with me on here.

    Best,

    Thank you for your recommendation. I've read a lot on syndications this week and will get the book too. T

    hink we will land on a mix. 

  • John FortesPro Member
    Multi-Family Syndicator · Abington, MA · Member since 2017 · 603 posts · 347 votes
    6y

    @Elizabeth M Williams I really respect what you are trying to build for your family. Admire it.

    With respect to all of the great advice you've already received thus far. I'd like to add...

    If you want to really dive in and learn, invest in some books or podcasts to get an ideal of what that type of investment looks like for investors who want to be passive.

  • Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 904 votes
    5y

    One more thing I would add is that syndications enable you to diversify more easily across geography, sponsors, asset classes, etc.

    The other thing that I do not see a lot of discussions around is the tax benefits of Multifamily vs single family. The economies of scale allow MultiFamily properties (say 100+ units) to absorb the cost of a cost segregation study to accelerate depreciation. Typically the "passive investors" still get the depreciation "paper losses" passed to them based on their ownership percentage in the property owning entity.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    Hi all,

    This is Swanny. I was featured on Podcast 238 and on the front cover of the wealth magazine and Ch 1 of the book written by Josh and Brandon called a beginner’s guide to investing in RE.  Feel free to pick my brain too!! I was quite a bit behind in my retirement too.  If I can do it, you all can too.

    Happy New Year,

    Swanny


  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 5 votes
    5y

    Another good book is:  The Hands-Off Investor: An Insider's Guide to Investing in Passive Real Estate Syndications by Brian Burke.

  • Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 54 votes
    5y

    Accreditation means nothing. Its giving up your right to SUE.   Buyer Beware.

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