Would You Do This Deal? NC Vacation Rental (Outer Banks)

Would You Do This Deal? NC Vacation Rental (Outer Banks)

Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes

Hi all,

I am finally buying my first property. It's a SFH under contract right now for $1.1mm. In the Outer Banks in North Carolina (Corolla specifically).


I've posted here before where I've looked in various regions of the country, namely CT, NY, NJ, FL, AZ, and have had real difficulty finding a good "turn key" rental property that actually produces real cash flow (after actually factoring things like capex, etc.) What I ultimately arrive at is that assuming no property price appreciation, the returns are typically 4-6% IRR unless I go class D or look at other deals that require significant owner involvement. At that point, I've just said why not buy REIT's and get similar returns and have the liquidity. It all seems to be speculation based on the price appreciation, which I haven't been comfortable with.


I do co-invest in a large real estate PE fund that focuses on value-add multi-family and other similar projects, but those are an entirely different ball game. Returns are pretty strong there with that firm, but I also want to own a property myself.

Anyways, a family member of mine invested in a SFH in the outer banks, ocean front. He is getting some crazy rental numbers from May-September, and he has a good amount of real estate rental experience in various parts of the country. He believes the area is one of the few areas on the ocean that you can still buy "cheap" (this is relative, say $1mm on the ocean for a nice 7BR house) and is growing and gaining more awareness. They rent well, and he actually likes to vacation there.

So I've looked at quite a few in person and modeled out probably 25 properties, and most don't work great. But there are actually quite a few. I currently have one under contract that seems pretty solid, but I may be missing something.

It's a 7.5% cap rate, and this is Class A (Class A plus if it existed). So that alone is pretty exciting. $1.1mm purchase price on $140k of 2020 bookings / $75k of annual NOI (including $8k of capex spend/reserves). I have the option to do a 10% down no-PMI loan at 3.51% blended rate. Throws off $1,900/month in FCF after paying down the full mortgage/P&I. It is a 10BR/10.5BA, 3 story house with ocean views, 2 lots off the ocean. Maybe 10 min walk to the beach, pool, elevator, movie theater room, etc. The story on it is that is was (one of the very few) properties that went into foreclosure last year, and the existing owners picked it up at $720k. They put $150k into the property, are collecting the rents for the season, and exiting. Good return for them. I saw it personally and it was clearly the best looking property we looked at. The dynamics, I was told by my agents, are that in the area investors look at the 10% rule, where you want 10% rents/purchase price. That seems to be the sweet spot for the area to get real cash flow after the mortgage. This one is 12.7%.

Property management is 11% and they are a traditional on-site manager with 300 houses on the island and have done very well with this one. A lot of managers here have not evolved and do not use any of the online booking sites. This manager does, and just handles a mix of traditional bookings and VRBO. The manager tells me he doesnt believe there will be a lot of volatility with the rents, he thinks it could do $133k for example one year, but he said at the same time you'll probably do $150k down the road. That is definitely a huge risk, just given this one does so much more in rental revenue than any of the other ones I look at. I fear it gets normalized compared to other properties.

Insurance diligence is ongoing, but the hazard insurance is ~$7k a year and covers loss of rental income. Lots of wind and hurricane risk in the area. In an X flood zone, which is good, but still requires flood insurance. All of that is factored into prior and current expenses.

New metal roof, new water and pool heaters, new furniture and TV's, etc. So I modeled $8k/year in Capex / repairs & maintenance. Management thinks $5k would be OK, but will vary.

Overall, IRR is 23% assuming I sell it at $1.1mm, what I entered at. If I sold for $930k, in 5 years, that is my break even point by which I lose money. But I have to think that a house like that on the water that is doing $140k in rental revenue during a 20% unemployment economy and a pandemic, should hold its value or even sell for more.

This is my first one, so I apologize for the length. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and I'm happy to return some help as well (I can send folks my model to use if that helps in their analysis, for example. I was a prior investment banker, private equity and corporate credit person so I spent a lot of my junior years in finance modeling).

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Rental Property Investor · Tysons Corner, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 13 votes
6y

@Troy Hebert Btw would love to learn from your model if you’re willing to share. I posted in the forums a while ago the model I built and use for long term rentals. I can share the link here if it’s of any use to you.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    I'd also add that the county is looking to 'potentially' build a second bridge onto the island, which would be on the north side connecting into Corolla. Today there's really only one bridge which goes into Duck, which is south of Corolla, then you have to drive 30 min north on the island to get to Corolla. Everyone drives in with their SUV's or pickup trucks, so it doesnt seem to be an issue, but theres definitely some crazy traffic on turnover days (Sat and Sun). I was absolutely amazed how many people were out vacationing, you can't even get a hotel within an hour driving distance of that island right now (maybe you can, but itll run at least $400. I paid $275 for the old Fairfield Marriott in Elizabethtown outside of the island, which is not a great area). 

  • Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2013 · 12 posts · 8 votes
    6y

    Hey Troy, interested to follow responses here and learn. Intriguing prospect. One point/question: “loss of use” coverage? I would dig hard on that policy and exclusions. When Florence hit two falls ago, our condo rental in Oak Island (NC beach south of OBX) was out of commission from mid-Sept - mid-March. Our policy reimbursed all actual bookings that got cancelled but would not reimburse any expected earnings or inquiries that could not book because the property was not habitable. Also, COVID has not been covered as loss of use in many cases. We get a decent amount of off-season revenue - I imagine more percentage of total than a house that big but that all depends on how deep a discount you offer in non-high season I guess - and so a hurricane can really screw that up. Just something to make sure you’re clear on the implications to your expected revenues. 

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Stuart Hipp:

    Hey Troy, interested to follow responses here and learn. Intriguing prospect. One point/question: “loss of use” coverage? I would dig hard on that policy and exclusions. When Florence hit two falls ago, our condo rental in Oak Island (NC beach south of OBX) was out of commission from mid-Sept - mid-March. Our policy reimbursed all actual bookings that got cancelled but would not reimburse any expected earnings or inquiries that could not book because the property was not habitable. Also, COVID has not been covered as loss of use in many cases. We get a decent amount of off-season revenue - I imagine more percentage of total than a house that big but that all depends on how deep a discount you offer in non-high season I guess - and so a hurricane can really screw that up. Just something to make sure you’re clear on the implications to your expected revenues. 

     Stuart you are so right. I fear the hurricane! And it will come. I plan to hire a third party insurance company to review the policies. You’re right, I can’t afford to lose July revenue. It’s like $40k. I mean, the breakeven (including equity from principal paid) is about $90k in rent for the year. So I could lose $50k in a year. But will have to take a look at all of that.

    I am not going to lie, I’m nervous. I’m adding almost $1mm if mortgage debt to my personal balance sheet. I’m trying to kick all the tires and do all the diligence but the scale is definitely scary for me. 

    Will take a deep look at that insurance policy. 

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    Stuart,


    confirmed that the insurance will cover loss of rental income even if not booked. They look at prior year from the management company. I think there is a maximum of 26 weeks booked, however. Works for me, but just an interesting nuance 

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    I guess my biggest fear here is that if I ever need to sell the house for $700k, it’ll bankrupt me entirely. While that does seem like a low probability, it’s a pretty catastrophic scenario. 

    The scenario I envision is some wide scale depression that impacts people’s ability to pay for expensive vacations. I’m trying to get data from 2008-2013 from my agent with regards to rental income in the area. This summer was crazy and despite Covid and unemployment the island was 100% booked and at pretty crazy rates. But the fiscal stimulus has bridged that gap for the time being which enabled forbearance and stimulus checks, etc. People also planned their vacations in advance, so likely just went anyways.

    If rental income falls to $70k, which is what a lot of homes on the island actually do (albeit much smaller 6BR type homes and maybe not right on the beach), then considering the 10% rule the value of the house would be $700k, or probably even less just given it’s size and higher natural operating expense structure (electricity will still be $7k/year no matter what).

    That scenario doesn’t seem too absurd. I guess with vacation rentals though, it’s not my primary residence, and as long as it does rent some to cover most of the expenses during that period (expenses are $50ishk in the downside case as some of the variable expenses like management fees would fall), I’m cash flow negative of about $10k/year due to the mortgage. So I’m still building equity in the property despite coming out of pocket $10k for the whole year. So just hold until the market comes back.

    Then again I’m assuming the market comes back. I’m sure there are areas of the country that never recovered from 2008-2010.


  • Rental Property Investor · Tysons Corner, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 13 votes
    6y

    @Troy Hebert I'm currently in this same market for a second home / STR investment. Similar concerns you have, similar background as well, so would love to chat. Take a look at https://floodfactor.com

    Research and modeling projections come from an independent think tank said to be much more comprehensive than FEMA's.

  • Edmond, OK · Member since 2012 · 456 posts · 270 votes
    6y

    @Troy Hebert

    I’ve been looking in the Emerald Isle area mot too far from where you’re looking. Your analysis for returns and risk are more than I could’ve done (kudos to your background). Learnt a lot from your post.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    Thought this post was dead!

    Is the concern with flood just that flood insurance goes up in the area? I’ve confirmed insurance will cover lost rental income, including unhooked rental income, which is great.


    Other concern is that this area seems overheated. SO many buyers coming into the market and buying properties up. It feels like a bad time to buy. Agents will tell you that prices haven’t reflected the crazy demand yet, but I don’t know.


    Im this close to walking from my deal. Still working to get rental performance through the last cycle to see what happens. I’m concerned that although 2020 was the highest performing year for rentals in the area, that’s because most of the bookings were prior to Covid and 50% deposits so folks still vacationed. But next year could see a big drop off. Just speculation.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tysons Corner, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 13 votes
    6y

    @Troy Hebert two top risks for me are a) over paying in a hot market (my agent who has 30yrs in this market tells me demand this summer is highest since 2006, which gives me pause) and b) writing off the investment. I’m a buy and hold so chances of being hit by natural disaster are very real, e.g. hurricane, flooding, raising waters etc. Most of OBX south of Naggs Head is greatly exposed, and most insurers would just make the lender whole (first lien at least, unsure about any second position). Reserves and insurance can cover most other damage risks.

    On your financing, did you avoid jumbo or did an 80-10-10? I’ve never done anything past conventional but this market is saturated below c. $640k. I think the best investment deals are above that price so I’m trying to figure out how to breakthrough without overpaying...

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    Agree with the thought that higher priced homes are the best investment properties. That’s why mine is $1.1mm, I ran a bunch of numbers for the $550-$800k range and they just barely work.

    I have approval for 80/10/10 but also 90/10 jumbo via primary residence. 3.5-3.9% rates depending on which one. But returns are really the same through all periods with either cap structure.

    I guess I’m confused as to the insurance risk here. Are folks saying that if there’s a hurricane that wipes out my property, they will only cover the lender’s exposure? 

    Agree on buying in a hot market. I've been looking at it as a rental cash flow deal which is quite good. $24k/year after debt service on $118k down (including my closing costs). That's a pretty solid CoC and the area is definitely ripe for potential appreciation. I spent a couple weekends there and everything is full capacity and seems like everyone wants a property down there.

  • Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2013 · 12 posts · 8 votes
    6y

    I wouldn’t be super worried about a huge dropoff in vacationers for your type of house. Seems to me it’s kind of the top of market rental and as long as you keep it lux you’ll always have the DC crowd coming south as well as other parts. Worst case you have to book for less in a tanked economy next year but a beach vacation is just part of the American summer tradition. We have found that, even with COVID, people still need to get away and they are willing to book as long as an engaged owner/PM  can reassure that they’re on the ball. We have prevented a lot of problems and blowback by overcommunicating on the front end. It sounds like you’ve got the insurance piece locked up so - unless you are counting on a significant portion of your income coming outside of high/shoulder season - your numbers make sense to me from an income perspective. Buying at that price point will always involve speculation from a market and appreciation context. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Tysons Corner, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 13 votes
    6y

    @Troy Hebert I’m with you on the analysis. Also your customer base should be more resilient to a downturn —and assuming your $24k is FCF, that plus any reserves should be a decent buffer in a downside case.

    It feels you have a solid deal, too solid to walk away from. I always say if it’s not nerve wrecking then I’m missing something. You should check with your insurance agent, you may have a full replacement value coverage but even then I’m not sure your equity wouldn’t be wiped out after paying debtors.

    I suppose the other option is to wait for a dip in the next six to nine months... but then of course prices may not dip. As I read from experienced investors in the forums, you make a move if the numbers make sense for you now.

    One aspect that confounds me still with seasonal rentals is the fact that property prices tend to be higher in Spring-Summer months and lower in Fall-Winter —as in many markets, where seasonality can move house prices 5-10%. However, and especially in OBX, if you close in the summer you will incur expenses for 9 months until the big cash flows come in (maybe less if big on prepayments), which means more cash reserves. As you know timing of cash is big for IRRs. Combined with lower demand and lower prices, buying in the winter would make all that much more sense on paper. Risk of waiting until winter is of course prices not coming down, short supply, cash on hand not earning returns, etc. Just curious if winter prices really account for the potential $50-100k+ income coming around the corner...

  • Rental Property Investor · Tysons Corner, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 13 votes
    6y

    @Troy Hebert Btw would love to learn from your model if you’re willing to share. I posted in the forums a while ago the model I built and use for long term rentals. I can share the link here if it’s of any use to you.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Alvarez:

    @Troy Hebert Btw would love to learn from your model if you’re willing to share. I posted in the forums a while ago the model I built and use for long term rentals. I can share the link here if it’s of any use to you.

    Will certainly share my model with you. PM me and I’ll get it cleaned up. Also happy to have a call on it to answer any questions. Some of the formulas can be a bit complex to have everything flow through (ie holding period and which mortgage balance to pull at exit uses index match functions)

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Alvarez:

    @Troy Hebert I’m with you on the analysis. Also your customer base should be more resilient to a downturn —and assuming your $24k is FCF, that plus any reserves should be a decent buffer in a downside case.

    It feels you have a solid deal, too solid to walk away from. I always say if it’s not nerve wrecking then I’m missing something. You should check with your insurance agent, you may have a full replacement value coverage but even then I’m not sure your equity wouldn’t be wiped out after paying debtors.

    I suppose the other option is to wait for a dip in the next six to nine months... but then of course prices may not dip. As I read from experienced investors in the forums, you make a move if the numbers make sense for you now.

    One aspect that confounds me still with seasonal rentals is the fact that property prices tend to be higher in Spring-Summer months and lower in Fall-Winter —as in many markets, where seasonality can move house prices 5-10%. However, and especially in OBX, if you close in the summer you will incur expenses for 9 months until the big cash flows come in (maybe less if big on prepayments), which means more cash reserves. As you know timing of cash is big for IRRs. Combined with lower demand and lower prices, buying in the winter would make all that much more sense on paper. Risk of waiting until winter is of course prices not coming down, short supply, cash on hand not earning returns, etc. Just curious if winter prices really account for the potential $50-100k+ income coming around the corner...

    So the $24k includes $7500-$8k in annual capex spend. If I don’t spend it, it builds into reserves. Property manager thinks $5k max. I think it’s reasonable.

    On seasonality, yes definitely an issue. I had to rebuild my model to be monthly. I go line by line and allocate a % of full year expense to each month. Ie linen and turnover expense is tied directly to weeks rented. Capex spend occurs in off season. Etc.

    I show a negative cash balance of about $25k in May going into the season next year. I hadn't factored in deposits, which is interesting and definitely a real factor that should be considered. My cousin who purchased an ocean front property down the road told me that folks pay 50% of it up front in advance, and some are booking the week after their stay for the next year. But the monthly model definitely shows large fluctuations MoM in cash balance. IRR pretty significantly impacted, if sold in the short-mid term, depending on the month. But I do believe I could sell it for $50k more going into the season (70% of NOI) in a base case that would offset the expenses incurred during the off season (net of the incremental 5% broker fees on the $50k).

    One thing with this one as well that’s super important. The property manager doesn’t have any reviews on it. It was purchased out of foreclosure in November last year for $720k. They put $200k into it, have rented it out for the season at an impressive $140k, and seem to be flipping it for a nice profit. Can’t help but feel I’m the bag holder buying it at the top. But at the same time, it has the best numbers out of any that I looked at and I got them to come down from $1.2 to $1.1mm. I assume because they are still making a great return. But there’s no historical data besides 2020 with this one given the history. Also, I haven’t been able to get an answer to the question as to who defaults / forecloses on a property that’s capable of cash flowing so much? Why wouldn’t you just hold? I don’t know.
     

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Stuart Hipp:

    I wouldn’t be super worried about a huge dropoff in vacationers for your type of house. Seems to me it’s kind of the top of market rental and as long as you keep it lux you’ll always have the DC crowd coming south as well as other parts. Worst case you have to book for less in a tanked economy next year but a beach vacation is just part of the American summer tradition. We have found that, even with COVID, people still need to get away and they are willing to book as long as an engaged owner/PM  can reassure that they’re on the ball. We have prevented a lot of problems and blowback by overcommunicating on the front end. It sounds like you’ve got the insurance piece locked up so - unless you are counting on a significant portion of your income coming outside of high/shoulder season - your numbers make sense to me from an income perspective. Buying at that price point will always involve speculation from a market and appreciation context. 

     This is great! I appreciate the input. I agree, it makes the most sense.

    My biggest concern, I suppose, is that there is a lag effect from unemployment and this becomes a longer lasting recession. $10k for the week is something that at least I personally would just cancel until I got my job back. I am maybe being overly concerned and careful just because the sizing is uncomfortable for me. My fear is that market values these at 11% of rent roughly at this price point. If rents go from $140 to $90k, not only do I cash flow negative for the year at $30k (after paying P&I which includes, obviously, some equity in the property), the price of the house would go to about $825k ($90k/11%=$818k). I’d basically be entirely wiped out and have to file for bankruptcy if I default and have to sell the house.

    Again, seems a bit crazy but then again when was the last time we saw a pandemic with 20% unemployment, with fiscal stimulus aimed at simply bridging a short term gap, with no long term plan in place (ie vaccine takes years to both develop, manufacture, and distribute globally and 70% of domestic GDP is based on the service side of the economy).

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    I’d also add that historically, one of my personal weaknesses is being too analytical / diligent. Works great when you’re an associate at a PE firm and ultimately do all the work for the partners to make the decision to invest, but analysis paralysis is a real thing.

    One thing that I would LOVE to do is to syndicate this. But it has to be my primary residence at closing and 60 days thereafter (I already have this worked out as my wife and I are fully remote employees now). I can’t really syndicate ownership in the home as it’s not an investment property loan with the bank. I don’t believe at least.

    I'd also love to quid claim the deed into an LLC but would definitely violate my loan agreement. I've read that lenders really won't enforce the acceleration on the loan in that case, not sure if anyone has done this. But ultimately having it in the LLC would be great even just for the sole fact of being able to deduct all my opex for running the rental property for tax purposes.

    If I don’t do this deal, it’ll be that I can do 3 deals with the same Capital with the private equity firm. Their returns are 20%+ across 100 real estate deals and 33% on value add multi family.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tysons Corner, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 13 votes
    6y

    @Troy Hebert I sent you a PM. The thought process you went through above is exactly the same as mine, for better or for worse so far it has kept me on my toes.

  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 109 posts · 31 votes
    6y

    @Troy Hebert You've done some great analysis here and your background in banking/credit helps you. The big concern I would have with this deal is whether there is an attractive risk/reward given where we are in the cycle and particularly with the impact of COVID-19 on future bookings over the next 12 months. I'm reluctant to touch anything that is heavily leveraged to tourism at this point due to future lockdown, travel bans, etc. There will be many such assets available for big discounts in a year or so if the current situation persists for another 6-12 months. So current prices for these assets will seem highly overpriced relative to where they could be if you're picking them up out of foreclosure. This might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to pick up assets at bargain-basement prices. A 7.5cap for a Class A property sounds good but I'd keep the powder dry and wait for screaming buys which I suspect will present themselves over the next 6-12 months. 

  • Arlington, VA · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    @Troy Hebert Did you end up purchasing the property? Why or why not? If you purchased, how are things going so far?

  • Rental Property Investor · Tysons Corner, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 13 votes
    5y

    I'd be curious to find out how it all went as well

  • Rental Property Investor · Tysons Corner, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 13 votes
    5y

    @Troy Hebert I just saw the house for sale when I was in the area, so perhaps you decided to flip it. Should yield a healthy profit, are you doing a 1031?

  • Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    3y

    @Troy Hebert Happy 4th Troy!  I just came across this and would also love to hear how things went.  I live an hour inland in Elizabeth City and started looking at OBX and Coralla same time.  Was bidding on a duplex in Buck Island weeks before the pandemic hit.  Had to do a 1031 so went another route.  Im a former commercial banker and would love to see your spreadsheet for analysis breakdown and know how things went for you out there.

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