Cash flow vs. extra cash out

Cash flow vs. extra cash out

Rental Property Investor · NJ and PA · Member since 2019 · 206 posts · 105 votes

I'm doing a bit of math on a potential deal, and the way it works out, I can potentially put in $80k (purchase for $60k, rehab for $15k, $5k refi closing costs), and increase the ARV to $120k. Thus, I could take $90k out in the refi (75% of $120k). But the rents aren't so high. After considering mortgage, tax, insurance, management, vacancy allowance, repair allowance, I'd just about break even monthly. I'd be getting $10k out of the deal, plus a property that my tenants would eventually pay for -- and which would begin to cash flow modestly as I increase rents over time. Alternatively, I could borrow only $80k, but that wouldn't reduce my payment very much (and besides, I want the cash for my next deal).

All this is just a preliminary analysis so far -- I have to sharpen the pencil on these estimates, but I'm interested in opinions on the concept.

Another consideration...this would be my first BRRRR and it's a long-distance one. It appears to need only modest renovation (floors, paint, appliances, etc.), so it would be a great practice BRRRR to get my feet wet and build my confidence. That's great value on its own.

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Whitney HuttenPro Member
Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y

@Gary Parilis What does this rent for? If it is cashflowing and you can get all or most of your money back it, I'd consider this a win. I think if BRRRR as a series of base hits, until you find the ONE that will be a homerun and give you a bit of money back out. You are acquiring a portfolio of properties that cashflow now, with very little of your own capital into them, that your tenants will pay down, and have a reasonable chance of appreciating... So that is 3 ways you are getting paid passively. Then you have the tax benefits and the inflation hedge.

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  • Rental Property Investor · NJ and PA · Member since 2019 · 206 posts · 105 votes
    6y

    And maybe the answer is this should be a flip?

  • Whitney HuttenPro Member
    Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Gary Parilis What does this rent for? If it is cashflowing and you can get all or most of your money back it, I'd consider this a win. I think if BRRRR as a series of base hits, until you find the ONE that will be a homerun and give you a bit of money back out. You are acquiring a portfolio of properties that cashflow now, with very little of your own capital into them, that your tenants will pay down, and have a reasonable chance of appreciating... So that is 3 ways you are getting paid passively. Then you have the tax benefits and the inflation hedge.

  • Rental Property Investor · NJ and PA · Member since 2019 · 206 posts · 105 votes
    6y

    @Whitney Hutten

    I agree, totally. But my initial (conservative) analysis suggests cash flow will be approximately $0. Question is whether it's worth the effort for (a) some cash out and (b) long term value from appreciation and tenant paying down the mortgage -- of whether my attention is best focused elsewhere.

  • Tyler GibsonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Orlando, FL · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Gary Parilis I think any time you can acquire a property at almost zero cost to you and it pays for it's self it is a win. 

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    Gary, 

    Breaking even after allotted allowances isn't such a bad deal. You're doing it the right way in that aspect. Tenants paying down a note on a break-even property after mortgage, tax, insurance, management, vacancy allowance, repair allowance is a better position to be in than break-even only with your note. 

    That being said, the decision to keep the $10,000 has to be quantified with reinvestment if choosing to use more leverage and have thinner margins. The difference of P&I on a $80k loan vs $90k loan is roughly $100, so if you are confident that extracting $10k and applying it towards an investment will produce higher returns than having a "safety net" of $100/mo, I would refi at the higher price. Likely the extra $100/mo would sit in reserves and would not be applied to the market for return as fast as cash-in-hand would be. 

    How is this area in respect to appreciation? In a high-appreciating area, holding a property that is break-even (truly break-even, with the criteria you listed) provides some additional cushion. 

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6y

    @Gary Parilis  You can't have it all.  You're essentially making $10K and you keep the property as a rental and you can use that for your next property.  As you said pulling less money out won't make that much of a difference in your payments.  If you are solely focused on cash flow, then don't refinance.

  • Rental Property Investor · NJ and PA · Member since 2019 · 206 posts · 105 votes
    6y

    Thanks for the feedback, all. You've validated my view. As long as my analysis is conservative and I have little risk of negative cash flow, this is a win. 

    @Account Closed I think this area has been appreciating the last couple of years, but I haven't yet done enough research to be confident in the trend. But if my costs are covered, just having tenants build my equity makes this a win.

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 1 vote
    6y

    @Gary Parilis true! Good luck and keep us updated. 

  • Investor · St Louis, MO · Member since 2017 · 250 posts · 181 votes
    6y

    @Gary Parilis Pull the cash out. Your payment isn't going to be much different and you can use the 10k for another deal or just keep it in reserves. If your not losing money every month and you got the deal for no money down I see it as a win. Just make sure that you have some emergency money in case something goes wrong!

  • Rental Property Investor · Queens, NY · Member since 2017 · 93 posts · 128 votes
    6y

    You aren’t alone..

    This is a long time debate about cashflow vs 100% cash-out, getting a discount at 75% of value and being able to float your 100% leverage in a BRRRR deal while breaking even in a B neighborhood is definitely a good thing. You didn't mention which market you're in but I'm assuming it's not in NJ since I've never heard of 5 digit prices unless it's in very rough areas.

    The main thing that usually isn't discussed is reserves for the property + income you make aside from scheduled rent from this property. Can you still float if the furnace, roof, foundation went sideways? If you're in a decent neighborhood in that price point, you have ample reserves and/or income to weather any storm, I'd do this over and over until you hit your next roadblock. I've done it 5 times in the past two years and it's a plan. 

    You will hear it from the anti-leverage group but they have a valid point for investors who don't consider the back-end discussion of liquidity and reserves. 

  • Rental Property Investor · NJ and PA · Member since 2019 · 206 posts · 105 votes
    6y

    @Lionel Li, thanks for the encouragement! It's Pittsburgh.

  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    6y

    I would never do that. This sounds like a good flip, horrible hold.

    Cash flowing $0 on a pro forma makes it highly possible for it to be a negative cash flow. There is a chance in a downturn you lose the property, mess up your credit ( if you signed a PG), and/or lose a bunch of money if everything wrong happens together (think capex + turnover + recession + declining rents).

    It has happened before, it will happen again. The people I know who have had long term success, all used lower leverage and higher cash flow. 

    I would always shoot to be at a minimum 1.3 dscr.

  • Investor · Avilla, IN · Member since 2013 · 796 posts · 769 votes
    6y

    @Gary

    For those saying that taking the cash will result in negative cash flow....you’re getting like 8 years of cash flow upfront. What is year 8’s cash flow going to be worth in year 8 vs taking it now? Less for sure.

    Take the cash...invest it in another deal.

  • Rental Property Investor · NJ and PA · Member since 2019 · 206 posts · 105 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Hicks:

    @Gary

    For those saying that taking the cash will result in negative cash flow....you’re getting like 8 years of cash flow upfront. What is year 8’s cash flow going to be worth in year 8 vs taking it now? Less for sure.

    Take the cash...invest it in another deal.

    Yes, of course, definitely. At a minimum, one could theoretically take a fraction of the $10k and stuff it under a mattress to cover years of potential negative cash flow. There's no question I'm better off with cash and a property than without it. My question was really whether it's worth tying up my limited capital in this deal when there could be cash-flowing deals out there.

    However, "limited capital" is a key here. It means I should be prioritizing deals that allow me to take cash out (or at least leave none in) to augment my investment for the next deal -- as you said.

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