What Would You Do!?!?

What Would You Do!?!?

J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

Okay, here's an interesting situation that my best friend (let's call him "Bob") found himself in this evening, and I'm curious what you would do if this happened to you... I'll try to keep it brief, but regardless, I think it's a VERY interesting situation...

Bob has a high-end condo that he bought in 2002 as an investment. He owes about $850K on it. He would need to sell it at $925K to pay off his loan (after all closing costs and commissions). He'd sell for this price, but for anything less, he'd rather hold and continue to rent it out.

Bob is not a big investor (it's his only property) and he doesn't have much experience with real estate agents (Bob can also be a pushover).

Bob listed his condo for sale in 2010 and didn't get any offers near his $925K price. I thought his agent (let's call him "Tim") was pretty lame -- he didn't do much of anything except put it on the MLS and hold one or two open houses.

Bob rented it out for another year and then listed it again in early 2011. Despite my suggesting otherwise, he used Tim again to list the property. Tim still didn't do much work, but this time he got Bob an offer for $910K. Bob suggested to Tim that he (and the buyer's agent) reduce their commission by about 1% total (from 2.5% each to 2% each) to get the deal done, as the buyer was adamant about not increasing his offer price and Bob really wanted to get this deal done.

Long story short, the agents pushed back against the idea of lowering their commission, went back with a $925K counter-offer and the buyer got cold feet. He walked. This was May 2011. In June 2011 (last month), Bob rented the place again and decided to wait it out another year.

Fast forward to this week. Bob gets a call from an agent who just sold the condo next door for $925K. He had a backup buyer who offered $915K and was heart-broken that he didn't get the place. The agent noticed that Bob just took his place off the market and asked Bob if he would still consider selling it to the back-up buyer. The buyer was even willing to take over the newly signed lease until it expired.

Bob said he'd consider it...bring him an offer. For some reason, instead of offering to represent Bob himself, this agent contacted Tim (they work in the same office and may be friends) and gave Tim the lead.

Tim contacted Bob today and said, "I have an offer in hand for $915K...are you interested?"

Bob said, "Nothing has changed...I still need $925K to sell, unless you guys are willing to work for 4% instead of 5% commission."

Tim said, "Instead of reducing commission at this point, let's counter the buyer at $925 and see what he says."

I told Bob, "Ask Tim to send you the written offer and tell him you'll review it."

This is where it gets good!

Tim sent Bob the written offer. But...

TIM DOESN'T HAVE A LISTING AGREEMENT WITH BOB! THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CONTRACT IN PLACE BETWEEN BOB AND TIM AT THIS POINT.

So, Bob has an offer in hand, but no agreement with Tim to pay any commission.

In theory, Bob could sign the offer and walk it down to the closing attorney and never call Tim back again. This would screw over both Tim and the buyer's agent, but Bob *could* do it.

What would you do?

Would you sign the offer and walk the contract to an attorney and close it without the agents?

Would you tell Tim you're accepting the offer as-is and also agree to pay smaller commission than what Tim is asking for (since this was Bob's preferred arrangement from the beginning)? If so, do you offer 4% (the amount needed just to break even) or do you offer even less commission in order to make a profit?

Would you give Tim what he's asking for (a listing agreement at 5%) and then allow Tim to counter the offer at $925K and hope the buyer agrees?

Or something else?

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Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2011 · 87 posts · 56 votes
15y

I would have the buyer's agent handle the entire transaction (by exclusive agreement) for 2.5% and let him and Tim work out their own co agent split.

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  • Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes
    15y

    Reducing commissions is typically not the answer. However I truly believe that bad people need to be moved out of the market. Your seller should of taught the agent how treat him, apparently he allowed himself to be walked over. So for that very reason, I pay out the commissions.

    Bottom line is your seller is at fault for it all. In my opinion. AT WORST, I'd give him a smaller commission, don't cut him out completely.

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y

    Thanks for the response, Joe...

    One thing I don't understand though -- just because my friend allowed himself to be walked over in the past by this agent, why does that mean he should allow himself to continue to be walked over?

    My friend's problem is that he holds real estate agents in high esteem, and never felt like he had the right to demand anything of his agent (he felt beholden to "Tim"). He now understands for the first time that he's in a position of power -- why not use it?

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  • Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Thanks for the response, Joe...

    One thing I don't understand though -- just because my friend allowed himself to be walked over in the past by this agent, why does that mean he should allow himself to continue to be walked over?

    My friend's problem is that he holds real estate agents in high esteem, and never felt like he had the right to demand anything of his agent (he felt beholden to "Tim"). He now understands for the first time that he's in a position of power -- why not use it?

    Karma, for one. For two, he's always been in a position of power.

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  • Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2008 · 978 posts · 985 votes
    15y

    So unless I'm missing something -

    Bob's listing contract with Tim is long expired. The listing agent next door had a buyer and he sent said buyer to Tim.

    Bob's house isn't on the market right now at all. This buyer just happens to have fallen in his lap...

    If Bob can get in contact with the buyer directly, and really feels like being nice...

    Bob should tell Tim that he will pay Tim a transaction fee, but not more than 3%. How much past that is up to Bob. Personally, I'd go with something like 2.5 or 3%... Generously. Depending on how annoyed I was with Tim, I'd maybe pay more like 1%.

    Tim's job was to find a buyer. Tim failed miserably at his job. Many moons after Tim has ceased his advertising, a buyer has fallen into Tim's lap through a process which my dear ol' dad might describe as "Idiot's luck"... Tim hasn't really done a damn thing to procure this buyer.

    Tim should accept his $10,000 commission with grace and see it for what it is - a gift horse.

    Bob should pay Tim because in this hypothetical case, I'm Bob and I'm sort of a soft-hearted chump who tends to pay people even when they're not 100% deserving. If Bob wants to be a shark like a professional colleague of mine, he should tell Tim to get stuffed and go close the deal.

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y

    Hey Aaron -

    I may not have explained it well. You have a couple details mixed up:

    - The buyer's have a buyer's agent (call him "Mike")

    - The listing agent on the house next door had a backup offer from Mike's client. The backup offer wasn't needed, but the listing agent was shrewd and decided to try to capitalize on that ready and willing buyer.

    - The listing agent did some research, learned that Bob has a similar condo listed a couple months ago, contacted Bob and said, "If I had a buyer for you now, would you still consider selling?" Bob said maybe. At that point, the listing agent SHOULD HAVE said to Bob, "Great! I'll represent you as your listing agent and we can try to get this deal done."

    - Instead, the listing agent called Tim (Bob's old listing agent) and said, "Hey Tim, I have a buyer for Bob, and since you used to represent him, I'll let you work with Bob, be his listing agent and try to get the deal done." I assume Tim would be paying a referral fee to the listing agent who put all this together.

    - So, in theory, Tim is the listing agent and Mike is the buyer's agent.

    Given that, Tim wants Bob to pay 5% commission (half to Tim and half to Mike)...

    Does that make more sense?

    Regardless, it sounds like you're saying that Tim deserves a nominal fee for handling the paperwork and getting the deal done.

    The question is, how about the buyer's agent? What should he get from Bob (if anything)?

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Joe Delia:

    Karma, for one. For two, he's always been in a position of power.

    I certainly agree with both of those...

    My personal opinion on this question is that both agents deserve a "fair" commission. That said, I'm not a big believer that a fair commission is always 3% (or 2.5% or whatever is standard). A fair commission -- in my opinion -- is determined by the time, effort, money and risk involved in the transaction.

    In this particular case, the buyer's agent deserves close to a standard commission, as he took on the time, effort and risk of trying to find his client a property. He doesn't deserve his full commission, as he ultimately didn't find his buyer the property (the other listing agent did). In that area, in this market and for properties priced in that range, 2.5% is standard. I think he deserves about 2% for mostly doing what he was paid to do. And I might accept the argument that he deserves the full 2.5%.

    The listing agent (Tim) also deserves a fair commission. In this case, Tim had a deal handed to him, he spent no time working the deal, spent no money marketing the property and incurred essentially no risk in the transaction. For the most part, his efforts involved paperwork.

    For this, I believe 1% is a fair commission.

    So, if I were my friend, I'd be willing to offer between 3% and 3.5% commission on the deal, and I'd ensure that the listing agreement specified that the split was 2-2.5% for the selling agent and 1% for the listing agent.

    In my book, that would be a fair deal for all involved...

    But, that's just my opinion, and I may not be in the majority...which is why I posed the question! :D

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  • Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2011 · 87 posts · 56 votes
    15y

    I would have the buyer's agent handle the entire transaction (by exclusive agreement) for 2.5% and let him and Tim work out their own co agent split.

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  • Lexington, KY · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    Personally I do not see how cutting Tim out of the deal would be screwing him at all. Tim knows there is no contract in place, and he did nothing to get this contract done (the Buyers Agent found the deal). Being a licensed agent I certainly agree in fair commissions, but in this case I don't think Tim did anything to deserve a commission. He listed the property multiple times and was unable to sell the property and it sounds like he didn't even try that hard, so if his contract is expired he is no longer getting paid...By the way, I try not to get walked on, but I also try to be fair :)

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  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Conroe, TX · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 43 votes
    15y

    In my opinion, Tim doesn't have a leg to stand on should Bob decide not to pay. Things to consider: Is there a protection period in the last listing agreement? If so, how long?

    My other concern would be Tim's honesty. With him presenting the offer, will he try to claim procuring cause to the transaction.

    The best way to negotiate on this transaction would be to get with the buyer's agent directly and tell him that he won't sell unless the price is increased to (x) or the agent's commission is reduced. I would tell this new buyers agent that I don't have a listing agreement with Tim and don't want him participant to the transaction. I'd also tell him that if he wants the transaction to close there will only be one commission and that he will need to work as intermediary.

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  • Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes
    15y

    1% to tim split by 50/50 most likely with his broker he might not even break even on the whole deal. I guess thats the cost of doing business. I can't say your wrong J. The buyers agent is an idiot. Unless instructed by his principal, why did he not try to work both sides of the deal?

    This sounds like the blind leading the blind in all aspects of the transaction.

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y

    Update on the story...

    Bob emailed someone on Tim's team (Tim is on vacation) that he wants to accept the offer and is willing to pay 2.5% to the buyer's agent and 1% to Tim -- just send the commission agreement reflecting that. Bob also told the person that if she had any questions, she should just me (Bob asked me to handle this for him, as he knew he would have caved if he did it himself :D).

    Anyway, Tim's associate called me, *LITERALLY* cussed me out, told me that they had spent lots of money marketing his property the past two years, and "f*** you for insulting us with this offer of 1%."

    After she hung up on me, I had to call her back to get the name and number of her broker so I could complain.

    About an hour later, I got a call from Tim (from vacation, I guess). He wanted to know "who the f*** are YOU getting in the way of my commission from Bob?" I told him that I was just a friend, that the decision was Bob's and I was just answering any questions. I told him that he either needed to accept the 1% and represent Bob or he needed to give Bob the contact info for the buyer's agent so Bob could handle it himself.

    Tim called me a "piece of garbage" and basically said, "If Bob isn't willing to give me my commission, f*** him...let him find the buyer's agent himself. And if he goes around me, he should expect to hear from an attorney."

    I told Tim that if he was planning to get attorneys involved, that I would have Bob call the Real Estate Commission, tell his story and see if they wanted to take any action against him (I can think of several potential ethical violations from Tim in this whole situation). I then got hung up on.

    I called Bob, told him to get the buyer's agent info off the contract, and call the agent. I told Bob to tell him that he wanted to accept the contract and ask the agent if he was willing to work with Bob as an unrepresented seller?

    Bob called me back a half hour later with the following:

    - He talked to the buyer's agent and she's happy to handle all the paperwork if Bob wants to represent himself (Bob has an attorney who can answer any contract questions and I can help him with the non-legal stuff);

    - Tim called Bob, told him something to the effect of, "I've decided I'm going to let you out of my commission and I'm not going to sue you. And here is the contact info for the buyer's agent." :D

    Clearly, Tim came to his senses, and did his best to save face and keep Bob from taking action. If it were me, I'd be on the phone with the RE Commission in a heartbeat, but I don't expect Bob to take any action.

    And I'm still waiting for a call back from Tim's broker so I can explain my poor customer service experience with Tim and his team... :D

    Btw, I know Bob is following this thread, so thanks for all the feedback! Hopefully he'll sign up for BP and share his own thoughts...

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  • Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    Guess it depends on how badly the seller wants the deal. The power comes from a willingness to walk if he doesn't get what he wants.

    If I was the seller I'd sign the earnest money agreement and write in the commission as I chose and let the agents fight over it.

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  • rockville, MD · Member since 2011 · 1 post · 2 votes
    15y

    Hi Everyone,

    It's Bob here! I just want to say thank you to all who weighed in on this topic. I was really being bullied by my agent,and I can't tell you how hard it was for me to remove myself from that "relationship". Honestly, it's only in hindsight that I am now able to see what an abusive situation I was caught up in.

    Through the help of all your comments, I was able to see the light and sign a contract paying a total of 2.5% commission - just to the buyer's agent. The money I will save will literally be life changing!

    Special thanks to J Scott. I am forever indebted!!! That's not legally binding is it? :)

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  • Real Estate Investor · SouthCentral, IA · Member since 2010 · 97 posts · 45 votes
    15y

    Great story J Scott, further proof its not only what you know, but WHO you know.... way to go

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by ezra udoff:

    It's Bob here! I just want to say thank you to all who weighed in on this topic. I was really being bullied by my agent,and I can't tell you how hard it was for me to remove myself from that "relationship". Honestly, it's only in hindsight that I am now able to see what an abusive situation I was caught up in.

    This whole thing was actually very eye-opening for me as well...

    Talking to your agents last week on your behalf, and having them literally cuss me out, threaten me with lawsuits and hang up on me when I refused to agree to their terms, made me realize that some agents really will use intimidation and scare tactics to bully their clients into doing what the agent wants.

    I'm used to dealing with agents who work on lower-price point houses, and my biggest complaint is that they don't really care about anything. They're lazy, inexperienced, uneducated in real estate, and unmotivated...and those are the good ones!

    For two years, I've been telling you to take control of your agents and your listings, and haven't been able to figure out why it's been so difficult for you to stand up to them; I guess I assumed they were as incompetent as the agents I'm used to. Instead, they took the other tact -- they used scare tactics to get you to go along with whatever they wanted.

    Had I not had any real estate experience, had I not known that their threats were empty, and had I not known I could scare them by invoking my own threats about calling the Real Estate Commission, I probably would have been pretty intimidated as well.

    Good lesson all around...and thrilled it's working out for you Ez!

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