I NEED FEEDBACK ON AN EXPANSION PLAN I AM USING

I NEED FEEDBACK ON AN EXPANSION PLAN I AM USING

Jerry W.Pro Member
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Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

I have been investing in real estate as a side thing for well over 30 years and have had many different strategies.  Often it was just buying then reselling my own home.  I am over 30 units now, but have slowed down my buying considerably for several reasons.  1.) Real estate had gone up a fair bit and frankly finding cash flow was tough.  2.) After refinancing the portfolio to buy out a partner cash flow was down a fair bit.  3.)  A year after I bought out my partner the energy price crash really hurt my local economy.  

I have a bad habit of buying properties and taking years to fix them up.  this is partially because when I had a partner I was in charge of finding and financing deals and he was a long time contractor who was in charge of fixing them up.

I currently have just finished the second half of a duplex that I have owned for a year and a half.  It is a vacation rental so income will be negative until next spring.  I also have a property 55 miles away that I have owned for 2 years that is about 90% ready for a renter.  It has been listed for sale for about 5 months just in case a I could get a buyer to save me some rehab.  I bought it very cheap, but have maybe $20K to $25K in renovations and holding costs.  A third property I have owned for well over 3 years, again bought cheap.  I had a deal with a contractor that fell through where i bought it, paid for materials and holding costs and he did the work and we split the profit.  It has a large garage I use for storage, but still keep the house heated.  It is 32 miles away.

My last fixer upper is a double wide that has been owned by another business I am in for 10 years or more.  It had problems and got some water and snow damage and has been empty for 3 years with various contractors doing a little work and then moving on.  In the last 2 months I have spent over $10K on it and will have at least another $16K into it before it is ready to sell.  I expect it will be ready to sale in 2 to 5 months based upon current progress.

Here is the problem.  I have had several decent deals come up.  (Not a common occurrence) I will refinance the duplex and pay my line of credit down to about $15K, leaving me $85K to pay as 20% down on new purchases and finance more renovations on those purchases.

Should I stop buying and concentrate on fixing up what I have, or buy these good deals and hold them until next year when I can work on them? One deal will cost about $93K and has an ARV of at least $160K. It has a 1700 square foot rental on top and a 1500 sq foot rental on the bottom. Needs sewer line replaced and water and boiler lines replaced. It has been frozen, so there will be a lot of pipe repairs. The combined cost could be as much as $20K, but that is high. Fixing up the interior should be around $5K to $7K for carpet and paint, and cleaning. It is in pretty good shape. It should rent for at least $700 on the top and $600 on the bottom. It is a foreclosure.

The second deal is a quarter of a block.  It has an OK 16 foot wide trailer, a low quality 1959 double wide trailer, a decent 800 foot garage, and a 750 square foot house that desperately needs burned or torn down.

I could have the newer trailer fixed up enough to rent for under $5K, and get $500 per month.  The double wide would able to be ready in 2 months and rent for maybe $450, and would need about $7K in renovations.  I am sure I can buy it for $50K.  The junk around the house will cost at least $2K just to haul off.  The tear down and haul away on the house will be about $12K.  

This used to be a nasty neighborhood, but the bad element recently died, had a fire and others sold and left.  I believe the neighborhood is turning now.  The land alone with nothing on it is worth over $50K, it is hard to value trailer houses, maybe $20K between them.  The local assessor has the value of everything at about $115K, I put it at $70K, but it will cash flow better than most due to the trailer houses.

So buy the deals and have them to work on later, or finish my current projects until they are done then look for deals?

I am possibly a little anxious to buy as my last deal I bought this spring I flipped and resold it for a $32K profit in under 4 months.  Neither of these properties will do that.  I had my wife, my handyman, and a realtor tell me I shouldn't buy the property, but fix my other ones instead.  My wife said I was just lucky when I made the $32K profit.

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Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
8y

Wow, my friend. You have a lot going on!  Still working as well, right?

Here's my high view nickel.  I'd rent out the vacation duplex half you just finished for 3-6 months if you can, until spring. Congrats finishing that!

The 90% done one would have my full attention. Bust it out.  Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and stretching carpet.  

As a reward for finishing the 90%er, I'd allow myself to entertain the idea of the REO. Let the bank season a bit into the cold winter. You may get a better price anyway!

The land and trailers and house sound like a lot to take on for anybody.  I'd wait on that until more is cleared off your plate.  Maybe consider that after 2 current projects are complete?  

Just some ideas, Jerry.  Please let us know what you decide to do!

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  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    8y

    Wow, my friend. You have a lot going on!  Still working as well, right?

    Here's my high view nickel.  I'd rent out the vacation duplex half you just finished for 3-6 months if you can, until spring. Congrats finishing that!

    The 90% done one would have my full attention. Bust it out.  Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and stretching carpet.  

    As a reward for finishing the 90%er, I'd allow myself to entertain the idea of the REO. Let the bank season a bit into the cold winter. You may get a better price anyway!

    The land and trailers and house sound like a lot to take on for anybody.  I'd wait on that until more is cleared off your plate.  Maybe consider that after 2 current projects are complete?  

    Just some ideas, Jerry.  Please let us know what you decide to do!

  • Rental Property Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2017 · 696 posts · 660 votes
    8y

    @Jerry W. I always love your input when I see you comment on other posts, it is nice to be able to give back some!

    I think you have realized one of the issues and it is very good to tackle it.  You and I have similar tendencies, the difference is I absolutely CAN NOT STAND lost rents....those are like planting a crop then not making the time to harvest it, you never get it back!   There will be plenty of other deals...now, if there is 1 that you absolutely think is a home run, maybe you try to do that plus finish the others.

    One thing I am not sure about is why these partially done projects are still sitting?  Is it lack of capital to pay for the repairs or just a time/management issue?  The holding cost and lost rents will pay for the repairs pretty quick.  Here is my advice

    1. Find a solid contractor(s) and realize that the "deals" with people in exchange for work almost never work out unless they are ALSO paying holding costs...otherwise, they just do it when they want and often that is AFTER everything else.

    2. If you really think one of the cheap deals is worth it, a great deal, then figure out a way to do it but only if you are also getting those other properties ready, 1 more unfinished deal is robbing your rehab money.

    Do you do the repairs yourself currently?  If not, then are you using "buddies" to do the work or do you have a good contractor?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    just brainstorming with everyone else. but maybe its time to pivot and sell everything get to cash and look at notes.. as we age notes are ( when selected correctly) far more passive.. and take 1/100th of your time.  We find most of our note investor in a company I consult for.. get their money to buy the notes by selling off their rentals..  they just tire of the landlord and fix up business.  

    short of selling out completely maybe you owner finance some of those homes and let the new buyer earn sweat equity?

    especially trailer homes those are a  bear to fix and maintain as the parts are not universally interchangeable and easily gotten..   When I buy a MHP the first thing I do is any park owned homes are either given to the tenant for a few hundred bucks or sold on contract.. 

    So that's some alternate ideas that may fit better with your time and desires.

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
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    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

     thanks for the input guys.  One of my main problems is that I often do a lot of the work.  I actually enjoy working on them.  However lately my main job has been pretty crazy.  The 2 out of town jobs have sat because there is almost no time to work on them when I drive so far back and forth.  Most of my work is done from 6 to 10 at night, or a weekend.  I had a very good contractor who worked on stuff up until about 3 years ago, but he is in such demand he is almost impossible to book now.  I got lucky awhile back and bought a house this spring that in only a few weekends I had ready and rented it for exactly what I thought i could and it is motoring right along.  The other house I bought and sold fairly quickly and made decent money.  Neither would have happened if I hadn't pulled off of working and made the leap.  I have a plan of sorts on the mobile homes for example.  I can have one trailer fixed up in only a couple of weeks and hopefully get $500 per month.  That makes the payment and all expenses with the whole property.  Anything else is gravy.  I will hire a couple of high school kids next summer and start hauling away garbage.  When the second trailer gets fixed in the spring or summer it gets maybe $450 and that is almost pure profit.  Now trailer are not very resistant to damage so turnovers can be more expensive.  The big house is much more complicated.  plumbing first.  I have to hire a plumber to tear out concrete and dig it up and put in new line and get a new concrete pad poured.  I can gut the ceiling of the basement and put in new water lines and boiler lines.  The problem is in the rent.  Renting just the upper part will be a losing proposition.  I get maybe $600 in rent, possibly $650.  The upstairs is very nice.  My payment is $700 per month.  I will lose $300 per month, although my interest paydown is over $200 per month.  I have to get the basement put together in order to cash flow.  Once fixed up not only will it cash flow.  I think I could sell it and put at least $40K in my pocket even after sale costs.  I have a handyman who is very good at plumbing work, but no idea on how long the project will take.  I might actually be able to hire a regular plumber to do it, but expect the cost will more than double.  It still leaves profit, but the margin is much lower and at best I break even on rents and total amount of cash put in.

    I have a new worker who I have used for about 4 months who is working out well.  He moved into the double wide my other company owns and has been doing well on fixing it up.  The trade off is he depletes my cash flow and savings pretty hard, so I have to refinance properties to keep money to keep him going.  It will pay off in the long run, but painful in the short run.  I want to have enough lined up to keep him busy for about a year.  I suspect that once he starts doing outside jobs I will lose him.  Our area has a huge shortage of guys who can do decent rehab and fix up work.  I still have no one who can do decent wiring for me so I am doing all of that myself.  It takes months to get an electrician and you pay well for it.  that is a time drag on doing projects.  I didn't realize until I just typed it hehe.  I doubt I will find any other deals this good for awhile, but who knows.  I passed on one last fall that would have been an $80K profit deal, but was able to get a friend of mine to buy it, and have been helping him get it going.  He has helped me out a lot in the past and I am very glad he finally jumped in.

    Tough decisions.  It will take about 2 more weeks to get the double wide covered in new siding then I can pull off of it and hit Riverton and get that unit ready to rent.

    My real worry is the overall market.  I hope it recovers soon.  Things are a bit tough here.

    Thanks @Jay Hinrichs for the thought.  I have bought 3 notes so far, and all of them have worked out VERY well.  I lack the finances to buy a lot of them, but would love to add them to my stable.  My brother and i got a loan to buy the first one.  It was paying 10% wow.  Guy finally paid it off and we had enough to pay off our loan and we decided to use the profit to pay off our dad's house mortgage.  There was even some left over.  My brother is now looking for more of them hehe.

    Thanks again for the insight. Just discussing it is very helpful. I see the issues from new angles. I need to do some calculating and see what the IRR might be in a 5 year plan for each property, and compare it to the loss of not working on other properties. That will be a challenge hehe. I will try to link my duplex pictures. It took a year and a half to do, but it looks very nice.

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
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    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
  • Jerry W.Pro Member
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    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
  • Jerry W.Pro Member
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    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    I clearly spent way too much time fixing up a small vacation rental, but it was pretty fun doing it.  No idea why some of those pictures turned sideways.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Jerry W. The vacation rentals look great! With those, unlike flips, It is hard to over do them because the finishing touches set you apart from the competition and allow you to charge higher prices. Plus more and more people want that "local experience". 

    Anyway, congrats on having a "good problem" of too many deals. From the outside looking in, it appears you have two issues 1. Short Term Liquidity 2. Workflow for you and your employees. 

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have $85k total for new purchases and repairs. You can't buy both the Frozen Pipe Duplex ($50k total) and the 1/4 Block lot ($76k total if you buy for cash). That also doesn't take into account the negative cash flow of the Vacation Rental you have to cover, the $16k to fix up the existing double wide, an the costs of fixing the other two properties. 

    So I echo what @Steve Vaughan said with the Dave Ramsy-esqe rehab snowball. Knock out the 90% property first. Since it is so far away, possibly selling it is an option that will free up cash to buy both the properties you want. Then you can pick one property to buy and you know you have the cash to handle the purchase, rehab, and your other fixed costs. Make buying a new property a reward for finishing the old one. Turn your guy to the 2x Wide that needs $16k in repairs and get that off off your plate. 

    If you can get those two done this year then that leaves you the cash and time to think about buying the second property and lines up your work well into next year on the two new and one old properties. 

    The last thing you want is a few months of six vampire asset sucking away your liquidity to the point you need to save up cash or refi another asset to start a rehab when you want to. 

    Good Luck.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jerry W.:

     The duplex came out great, Jerry!  Love the floor and rustic western finishes.  Perfect!

    It was awesome getting to stay there and meet you and your wife this summer.  Cool little town I imagine you will be running or at least be the mayor of someday ;)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:
    Originally posted by @Jerry W.:

     The duplex came out great, Jerry!  Love the floor and rustic western finishes.  Perfect!

    It was awesome getting to stay there and meet you and your wife this summer.  Cool little town I imagine you will be running or at least be the mayor of someday ;)

     Steve since you stayed there i had to google earth it.. I can see now how rural that is and why Jerry's projects being spread out there is a lot to think of.. in such small locations.. there are not a ton of options.. but it sure looks like a nice centrally located area for the outdoors .

    I have flown over it at low elevation on my way to Driggs Idaho and the airport there at Grand Tetons.. I bet you had a nice trip.

  • Rental Property Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2017 · 696 posts · 660 votes
    7y

    @Jerry W. any chance of locking those two deals you want (or one of them ) up with some kind of a long term or contingent contract, maybe even a 1 year lease option, something like that?  Might be that the sellers need some short-term cash (5k etc) and can wait for the rest?  Keeps your liquidity and lets you close if you want to...clearly write the lease option to your benefit (full credit of option fee to closing and ability to collect rents during the period to offset fee or something?

    LOVE how the vacation rental came out!  Looks awesome!

  • Property Manager · San Bernardino, CA · Member since 2014 · 473 posts · 238 votes
    7y

    I highly suggest finishing the projects you have one hand. As a serial home buyer myself, it can sometimes hurt to pass on a good deal, but there will always be more. In every market, up or down, you'll be able to find deals. Sometimes it makes sense to breath, tidy up what you have, and THEN move forward!

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
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    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Bill F., thank you for the kind words on the vacation rental.  After investing a lot into it the bank had a mini appraisal done and the lowest estimate came out to $160K.  I paid $62.5K for it but it was in pretty bad shape.  The realtor who came to look at it wouldn't walk on the floors for fear they might break in hehe.  I will refinance it for $90K on a 20 year note.  Payments will be a little over $600 per month.  While I could pull more money out it will be negative cash flow pretty hard if I do.  So far the return on vacation renting has not been that great with just the one side renting.  It is pretty dead in the winter so I hope next spring is better.  Summer was pretty good it grossed about $1,200 per month on the one side which is a bit more than double what I could get for it as a straight rental.  The vacation rental business in this area is pretty new, I think I saw a total of 18 of them in this and the neighboring county.

    @Richard Sherman, the way I buy is I use my line of credit to buy it, then refinance 80% of it with a mortgage, get the 80% back and buy another then refinance and get 80% of that back.  Eventually my line of credit gets too small to buy anything and I fix something up and either sale or refinance it paying down my line of credit again.  It seems slow, but is much faster than just getting a loan and paying 20% down.  I can usually refinance is 2 to 4 weeks.  If I bought the big frozen house first I would be able to buy the 2 trailers with the money I got back from doing the first mortgage.  Then I would go into fix mode again and use my line of credit to fix them up.  Hopefully I could again refinance one of them to pay down my line of credit and start looking for deals again.  If I got a 60 day closing I could buy them both.

    @David Friedman, I know I really need to concentrate on one at a time and get it done.  The existing double wide has to get siding on it as part was removed to do a wrap on it.  Then a week in Riverton for the house there.  I had it listed for a few months, but no bites.  Tough market.

    @Jay Hinrichs I have to tell you about the note I bought.  A mom had a junky house she sold on a mortgage, only about $40K.  The guy defaulted and she redid it.  She passed and her 3  kids inherited it and the guy defaulted on them.  They redid the note, he again defaulted so they came to me to redraft the note.  They hated it.  I told them they could sell the note at a discount and probably be done with it.  The short version is they offered it to me for a lot less than I told them they could get.  Small note with $20K still owing, I paid $10K  I met with the guy after he refused to pick up his foreclosure notices and told him I would like the house and would give him a few thousand to move out and sign it over to me, or he could catch up the payments and make them on time.  He asked to keep it.  After 90 days i got $3K in back payments, and so far he is making payments on time.  I know it is tiny, but it was my first solo buy on a note and I used my line of credit.  The folks I bought it from were thrilled.  The guy who owned was glad I gave him some time to catch up and keep it.  Now if I could do that on a large note.

    @Steve Vaughan, maybe you can try the new side out when you come again.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    @Jerry W. that's the definition of the NPN business right there in one transaction.. sure helps that your a lawyer though

    most folks have to add legal fee's in their collection efforts.. I know a few HML that were lawyers by trade and built such a monster HML business that is their core business.. let me tell you its a huge advantage in the industry.

  • Rental Property Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2017 · 696 posts · 660 votes
    7y

    @Jerry W. I like the process and it seems like you like the work and have fun at it.  I dabbled in ag land and got VERY VERY lucky but I have to remember that the process for me is buy mismanaged (low rent, deferred maintenance) Multifamily, fix the issues, raise the rents and HODL!  :)

    I think the common thread for all of this was....get your assets completed so that they can kick off the income, you need to have them feeding you, not the other way around...THEN go after more...or do both but with focus on getting the assets rented asap!

  • Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    Hey @Jerry W., if those few deals are pretty good deals, call some of your buddies in the area and add a $1000 or $2000 and let them do the deals, wholesale them. You dont lose out and now you have a few $$ to pay someone to finish the rehabs and start the rent coming in. OR if you dont want to rent, as mentioned above, sell the properties with owner financing. Notes are nice. Maybe you dont even have to finish up the rehabs, just sell with owner financing as is.

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