Next Property - Appreciation ($650K) or Cash Flow ($170K)?

Next Property - Appreciation ($650K) or Cash Flow ($170K)?

Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 3 votes

Hello fellow BP members!

I wanted to ask for your advice regarding a decision I’m putting in front of myself: I’m trying to decide if my next investment property should be a play for appreciation or cash flow

I’ll try to give enough numbers and information to hopefully provide you with the ability to help provide your guidance.

My Current Portfolio

- 7 “cheaper” cash flowing properties (values ranging between $140-$210K) in Las Vegas, NV
- 2 “expensive” appreciation properties (values ranging between $650K-$820K) in Orange County, CA
- Monthly cash flow (for all 9 properties): $2,600

Other Relevant Information
- I’m currently working full time
- I have enough savings to last me more than 2 years (without a salary)

The Investments I’m Considering

Option 1
- SFH in Orange County, CA, for $650K with negative monthly cash flow of $300
- 30 year loan with 25% down payment of $187,500

Option 2

- SFH in Orlando, FL, for $170K with positive monthly cash flow of $270
- 30 year loan with 25% down payment of $42,500

Pros and Cons

Option 1

CONS:
(a) Negative monthly cash flow
(b) Large down payment
(c) Even larger exposure to market in Orange County, CA (would be 3 properties)
(d) I would likely have to sell one of my existing Las Vegas homes to come up with down payment (otherwise I’ll have too many mortgages to qualify for a new one)

PROS:

(a) Potential for larger appreciation (10% potential appreciation in 5 years of $650K vs. 10% appreciation of $170K), so I feel it is a better long term play
(b) I’m not sure if you guys typically give this much weight, but when I include the larger principle payment that would be made every month (e.g. around $800), it changes the monthly cash flow equation if one chooses to consider it, making it more attractive (long term)

Option 2

CONS:
(a) I feel it’s a weaker long term play (less appreciation potential)

PROS:
(a) Positive monthly cash flow out of the gates

General Notes
- I feel I can sustain the monthly cash flow in both cases
- I am only considering taking on the larger property (Option 1) because my other cash flowing properties provide me some buffer.
- However, I’m wary of pushing the limits too far and exposing myself to too much risk (debatable what is “too much”)


Conclusion
I'm looking for your advice/guidance about my above decision. I realize I can look at other opportunities than then two I have listed, but I feel I'll still come back to the debate about whether I want to go for a more expensive property with negative/less cash flow but better future appreciation possibilities, vs. a cheaper property with positive cash flow but less appreciation potential.

Thanks in advance and I'll try to fill in any missing info based on your feedback and questions.

Einar

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Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
9y

Based on the fact that your existing 9 properties are valued at $3.7M and your positive cash flow is only $2600 I am guessing that you are primarily a speculator as opposed to a income investor. For that reason alone, since you provide no specifics on individual properties, I would say by all means continue to speculate on appreciation. But beware the time may be approaching soon to liquidate as they are most likely not self supporting investments regardless of your present perceived "positive cash flow".

You will get two answers to your question, those that rely on cash flow will advise buy the cash flow property, those that speculate will advise buy the speculative property. In other words no answer you get will be of much value.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Based on the fact that your existing 9 properties are valued at $3.7M and your positive cash flow is only $2600 I am guessing that you are primarily a speculator as opposed to a income investor. For that reason alone, since you provide no specifics on individual properties, I would say by all means continue to speculate on appreciation. But beware the time may be approaching soon to liquidate as they are most likely not self supporting investments regardless of your present perceived "positive cash flow".

    You will get two answers to your question, those that rely on cash flow will advise buy the cash flow property, those that speculate will advise buy the speculative property. In other words no answer you get will be of much value.

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    Hi Greg S. and thank you for your reply!

    Yes, I do have a portfolio that looks more like that of a speculator. A few notes, in case they help:

    1) I started out just building my portfolio in Las Vegas. Their total is valued around $1.3M and their cash flow is about $2,700

    2) I then started purchasing those higher priced properties in Orange County, and their value is about $1.5M with a cash flow of negative $100

    3) You mentioned that the 9 properties are valued at $3.7M but I think this is wrong, and the the more accurate value is $2.8M ($1.3M + $1.5). This still likely classifies me as more of a speculator than a cash flow investor, even though I think of myself (incorrectly ?) as the latter.

    Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

    Einar

  • Real Estate Broker · CA · Member since 2016 · 243 posts · 226 votes
    9y
    Switch to 2-4's in OC that do cash flow and get the best of both worlds.
  • NYC, NY · Member since 2013 · 50 posts · 22 votes
    9y
    While so cal is all well and good and where I grew up....'you're banking on speculation to grow. I'm trying to find smaller markets to buy homes and get at least 1% back of the total cost of the property. This sets me up without need for appreciation. While appreciation is nice... it's not guaranteed. Here's how I see it- let's say you have a million dollars. 10 homes for 100k each rent for 1200 each and you're pulling in 12000 a month 1 home for a mil renting for what... 4k? First option gets you 144k a year 2nd option gets you 48k Now take this out a few years... What you're banking on in a speculative play you can make with just 1-2 years of buy and holds. Furthermore- these properties will continue to generate income down the road. So, I see that as an easier route which doesn't burn you If you can cover mortgages. On the 2nd option, your monthly rent may not cover mortgage. But... that's just my take. Lot of smart people on here that would argue against it. In the end- remember to have fun and treat others kindly. Peace
  • Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 303 votes
    9y

    sounds like you are playing a dangerous game. thats all I heard. 

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Matt H.:

    Switch to 2-4's in OC that do cash flow and get the best of both worlds.

     Thank you Matt. I have never ventured into 2-4's but am certainly interested. Do you have an sample numbers to share based on any recent deals you have been involved with or seen? Thanks

  • Real Estate Broker · CA · Member since 2016 · 243 posts · 226 votes
    9y

    @Einar Mykletun Well I think you should venture into them. Seems like a natural step to me. Then you mess with those for 5-10 years, then you go bigger. It's obviously getting harder and harder to make the numbers sexy, and the trump 10 year bump to almost 2.30 isn't helping. But last two years @Peter Assaad was pretty right on with $4000 rent per month per million spent on a SFR. I've been buying anywhere from $5750-6500/per month per million spent for a 2-4 unit. And I can make those cash flow no problem. I don't do 30's though, not my thing.

    Can't beat the option of self managing or at minimum the ability to drive by. Plus, at the end of the day, it's hard to beat the OC.

    Matt

  • Investor · Oskaloosa, IA · Member since 2014 · 126 posts · 65 votes
    9y
    I think the party is 75% over! In my opinion, the easy days of appreciation has almost ended🙂 I personally would not roll the dice (is this Vegas ??? 🤑) so aggressively. Just my 2 cents.
  • Real Estate Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 399 posts · 260 votes
    9y

    I'd probably sell everything and put my money in some multi family. Your income numbers for the total value of your portfolio make me sad in my heart. 

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    Thank you everyone for your replies - much appreciated!

    @Matt Hoyt - Thanks again for your feedback. If you are open to me reaching out to inquire more about such possibilities, then I'd like to continue a direct message conversation with you. I'll take you out for a coffee or bite to each too if you're around OC in the near future.

    @Peter Assaad - Thanks for taking the time to write your response! My first 9 properties in Vegas (I since sold 2 of them) started off along the same formula/numbers as the ones you describe (I purchased them around $70-$100K and they rent(ed) for $950-$1,250), so I feel I've done alright setting up my cash flow with them. I have however taken a different approach with my current 2 higher priced properties in Orange County. That being said, if I could find another market where I could get 1% back then I'd be interested in exploring it and possibly purchasing multiple ones there, as opposed to another very expensive one here.

    @Omar Merced - Thank you too for your response - did not mean to make you sad :) It looks like you are an agent in Nevada. You mentioned that my overall income numbers are quite miserable. What do you think about the income numbers for just the Vegas properties - are they in line with what you have seen with other investors there? They are basically valued around $1.3M and bringing in $2,700 after all expenses (budget ones too). Total income before expenses is $7,400/month.

    @Ed S. and @Justin Stamper - thanks for sharing your concerns. Good for me to hear all the feedback I've received.

    Thanks again everyone

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    One more follow up question, to those who are willing to answer.

    I'm a bit confused about how you look and evaluate the numbers for your own investments. Basically, do you evaluate the rental income against (1) the value of the home when you purchased it, (2) the outstanding mortgage or (3) the current estimated value of the home?

    Example
    Purchase price: $100,000 with 20% down payment (so loan of $80,000)
    Monthly rent: $1,200
    Estimated value 5 years later: $180,000 (e.g. some of my Vegas properties)

    The 3 valuations outlined above then turn out to be:
    (1) Monthly rent against purchase price = 1.2%
    (2) Monthly rent against mortgage = 1.5%
    (3) Monthly rent against estimated value = 0.67%

    So the last value there (0.67%) looks paltry but when looked upon against the purchase price or mortgage, we are at least above the 1%.

    Can you enlighten me on how you yourselves evaluate rental rate vs price?

    Thanks,

  • Sunnyvale, CA · Member since 2016 · 77 posts · 26 votes
    9y
    You focus on speculation. I have no objection to that, but the problem is timing. First of all, no one can really time the market. We can only evaluate the risks. I would say you are in huge risks. Look at mortgage rate and the potential interest rate hike. All point to a correction in real estate, if not a crash. You may want to at least unload some with smaller chances of appreciation. That may help you avoid some unnecessarily high risks
  • Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 904 votes
    9y
    Einar Mykletun , there are markets like here in Philly that yield monthly rents of 1.5% to 2%. PM me if you are interested in learning more.
  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Percy N., which areas of philly yield that much, and are these C/D areas?

  • Missoula, MT · Member since 2016 · 163 posts · 55 votes
    9y

    My short and sweet answer would be either:

    1. go for the money producing property

    or

    2. With so much net worth, sell what you have or use the properties as leverage to get into a sweet NNN lease. NNN's tend to be less headache and oversight than traditional apartment ownership.

    Not to say your properties are not producing the income they should, but it seems that your NOI is on the low side with nine properties. While NNN leases them selves tend to be low cash on cash producing properties they will certainly give you more bang for your buck compared to what you have told us here.

    Just my two cents.

  • Attorney · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 300 posts · 172 votes
    9y

    Why not take some cash that you have on hand and pay down 1 or more of your existing mortgages? You have a nice diversification of assets, but instead of looking for greener pastures, why not tend to your existing herd? That would be my play. Your cash flow would increase, which you could then use to pay down more mortgages, and alleviate a ton of risk. 

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    Thank you all for your comments and feedback!

    @Embert Madison jr - I am in agreement with you about paying down existing mortgages. I realize I did not mention this above, but I own 3 of the Vegas properties free and clear. This also then gives me leverage to refinance them for cash-out-loans to give me additional funds, if desired, to go after more properties. Overall, reducing my risk exposure is certainly a goal, which I try to balance with continued growth. Thanks for the feedback!

    @Percy N. - Thanks for the info. I'm also interested in the quality of such properties/markets (like @Arkady S. asked) and I can message you directly as you said.

    @Ken Teng - I know my portfolio is giving off that I'm focusing on speculation, but my intention was actually to have my cash flowing properties (Las Vegas) be the vehicle to permit me to take on more risks with a few larger properties (e.g. Orange County). I may have gone too far, and unloading one of the Orange County ones would go a ways to reducing some my risk.

    @Anthony Wienke - Thank you for alerting me to the option of NNNs. This is not one that I had considered and I will educate myself about this avenue.

    Hope everyone is having a nice Friday.

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 213 posts · 162 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Omar Merced:

    I'd probably sell everything and put my money in some multi family. Your income numbers for the total value of your portfolio make me sad in my heart. 

     What he said ^^^

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    I would always evaluate rental income against the value of the property. As the property increases in value the rents must maintain the same level of return otherwise it is a poor investment property.

    However I would never invest in SFHs, I do not consider them to be a investment, therefor my rents actually determine the value of my properties, cap rates.

    All my properties should cash flow based on a 100% mortgage on the actual value of the property. No property should have equity above the minimum amount possible. Equity kills cash flow. Paying down a property does not increase cash flow it decreases it as all money wise investors know..

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Thomas S., I agree that: "No property should have equity above the minimum amount possible". But I didn't get the "Equity kills cash flow" follow-up.

    Did you just mean "(unutilized) Equity means WASTED borrowing opportunity"?

    Because strictly speaking, your cash flow dollars are at their maximum, with NO borrowing*!

    * I mean: per property.

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Einar Mykletun, any time property values rise as against their rental increases eg. "Monthly rent WAS 1.2%/m at the time of purchase, but NOW is just 0.67%", that to me means: time to sell, and put the proceeds back into two more 1.2%+/m gross return properties!

    You wrote that ..."This still likely classifies me as more of a speculator than a cash flow investor, even though I think of myself (incorrectly ?) as the latter"...

    So yes, any property that costs you MORE money every month than you're making out of it, disqualifies you from being an ACTUAL cash flow investor.

    Until - you SELL - when the numbers favor that! (And for some of them, isn't that, er, NOW?)

    What I'd really like to see in your buying is: finding under-market ones, that give you INSTANT appreciation, on day one! Flippers find them! Why can't you? Cheers...

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    @Brent Coombs - thanks for taking the time to reply. 

    I'd like to ask a follow up question to better understand your suggested strategy of selling off a property that's risen in value, such as gather two more. I see the value in doing so, in terms generating more monthly cash flow, but are there any cases where you ride out come of these properties for a longer time, instead of selling? 

    If we take the example of a $100K SFH, purchased 5 years ago, and rents for $1,200. Then it's value has risen to $200K and let's assume the rent is the same ($1,200). Obviously, relative to the higher value, the rent is now a smaller percentage per month, but are there any reasons why you would not want to sell it? I guess if you don't at all speculative about further asset appreciation, then it favors one to sell to try and purchase multiple more and potentially get two properties that each rent for $1,200.

    I'm basically asking if there's value in holding onto a property that is in one's portfolio and performing, has solid tenants in it, as a longer term play. Guess it comes down to one's investment strategy.

    Thanks - a lot to learn/figure out for me in terms of being more deliberate when making investment choices.

    Meaning, if you purchased a SF for

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Einar Mykletun, even though I don't normally recommend investing for SPECULATIVE appreciation, I did give @Thomas S. a vote for his post which partly reads: "since you provide no specifics on individual properties, I would say by all means continue to speculate on appreciation".

    The main reason I gave that vote is because Greg went on to write: "But beware the time may be approaching soon to liquidate as they are most likely not self supporting investments regardless of your present perceived "positive cash flow"".

    Nothing that I've seen you post so far has led me to think that you give as much thought to an EXIT strategy as you do to your "one day it SHOULD cash flow positively" philosophy.

    It's nice to have the income where you can keep going into those gambling halls night after night, month after month, year after year, HOPING that a 0.67%/m gross return on your "investment" will magically mean ACTUAL cash flow, without you ever selling anything! Get what I mean? 

    Of course, some/all of those investments may well yield a better profit than other investors get, who MUST rely on positively cash flowing properties at all times.  

    But please, make sure you allow for: what happens IF your "nice income" were to suddenly dry up!

    [Er, did your last post get cut-off before you finished?] Cheers...

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    Thank you @Brent Coombs.  I am realizing more and more that I have a ton to learn and that I have simply been taking a "go with the wind" approach so far. Thank you for your (and everyone's) honest feedback!

    I agree with everything you are stating (Hoping, Should cash flow, Must rely on...). Can I provide you with some more details re my initial Vegas purchases, so you can provide any insight as I'm seeing that I should re-evaluate whether it is prudent to keep holding on to them.

    Vegas properties
    I made a goal for myself in late 2008 to purchase 1 SFH every 6 months. I ended up purchasing 9 homes and selling off two (class C/D with a lot of tenant turnover). Each property was purchased with 30 year financing between $64K-105K, and are renting out for between $950-$1,250. I managed them on my own until I had 6 of them, at which point I went through a couple property management companies until I found one that I was comfortable with. I have paid off 3 of the homes, by refinancing a few of the other ones (and using the money back to pay off the loans), and am in the process of doing my first pure cash-out refi of one of the 3 paid off properties (getting back 75% of the value). As mentioned above, those 7 properties I have left in Vegas are now valued between $140-$210K each, so I've simply been lucky in terms of the wind blowing my way (appreciation).

    This cash-out refi is part of the reason that sparked me to write this initial forum post, as I am not sure what the best move is with the money I'm getting back (or if I should even make a move at this time). 

    If there's additional info that I should be providing to give a more complete picture, then please let me know. I'm feeling like a newbie all over again and am trying to remove my preconceived notions.

    Thanks again

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Einar Mykletun, if I'm not mistaken, by the end of 2008 the panic had already set in regarding Banks calling in their loans, and the prices already started to plummet?

    So even though you used that to your advantage, maybe you didn't make the MOST advantage of that? (Then again, who did?) The "sweet spot" of plummeted prices in Las Vegas was probably double what you started paying ie. homes that just a few years before were fetching $450k-$600k were being sold off in 2009 for less than $200k (but, more than $150k).

    Did you go TOO cheap, when you didn't need to? Why didn't you look around CA at THAT time?

    To the point at hand, it's good that you now know that it really IS time to take a long look at your goals, vs where the real estate cycle is. But remember, bargains can be looked for in any market!

    My simple philosophy is: buy the worst houses for the cheapest prices in the best streets I can AFFORD (without sacrificing positive cash flow, even leveraged at 70%). All the best...

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