Questions, Questions - what is the best buy-and-hold strategy?

Questions, Questions - what is the best buy-and-hold strategy?

Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
BP Family, deciding which route to take to take to acquire a rental property and would love your two cents. I live in Charlotte, NC and own my primary residence in the fastest growing region of the county. I am debating between either: a) acquiring a rental in one of the local transitional neighborhoods via conventional or owner finance (and would need to make a down payment) or b) renting out my single family home and moving to a new place (as yet identified nearby). Rents for a property in the transitional neighborhoods will range from $1000-$1100, with a 10% CAP rate. Rents in the .5 mile radius of my home range from $1650-$2000, and I would likely be able to demand around $1800 for mine, with about a 15% (conservative estimate) or greater CAP. (Those numbers alone may well make the decision a no brainer, but read on!) The following are some considerations I'm toying with: I built my home new and have lived in it for almost 9 years. It requires no rehab, the major systems/roof should be all good for another couple years and then some and likely only needs some cosmetic touches to get it ready for a renter (coat of paint in some rooms, etc.) Note that the rental properties I am considering are all turnkey or are already cash flowing, so no significant (or zero) costs for make-ready on that front either. If I move, there will be obvious move and possibly storage costs, as well as the loss of time spent purging/packing/unpacking. (Even if I paid packers, still have to get organized). I suspect the next place will be temporary (1-2 years), unless it's a super great deal, so that means those move costs will make an appearance again in a short time period. If I move, what do I move too? An SFH I purchase (that requires a down payment to acquire)? An SFH I rent (obviously if I rent, I lose the tax benefits of primary home-ownership, but might that be off-set by the rental income and business expenses?) A 2, 3, or 4-plex that I buy, living in one unit and renting the others (have heard conflicting views about some multi-families being harder to rent)? If I'm purchasing the next property, do I look for one that requires a little rehab and can be flipped in a year or more, or find one that is mostly move-in ready (but less expensive than my current home)? Or do I just set the max price point and work with whatever deal pops up in those numbers rather than trying to narrow the field now? Re: acquisition costs - I can put my hands on enough funds to acquire the transitional neighborhood rental and have a good-sized cash reserve today. If renting my place and purchasing a new primary residence, I'll likely need a little more time to build up enough for a down payment and have a cash reserve. In either case, once the property is acquired, I'll likely need 8-10 months (maybe more) to build up another down payment/reserves to acquire another property (this obviously doesn't refer to "subject to" and other creative finance deals). I could be over-thinking it or maybe haven't asked enough questions! But I would appreciate your thoughts as I noodle on all of this, especially from my fellow Queen City experts. Thanks!!
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Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y

@Shalanna L. Pirtle I would stay where you are until you have enough money saved up to buy another personal residence. Ideally, you would buy a small multi-family, but a single family works too if the numbers work out. You don't need that much to buy the next home if you are going to owner occupy. I would aim for a 5% down conventional, but there are lots of interesting loan programs out there that don't require much. The only reason I wouldn't do FHA is the high PMI that stays forever (unless you refi), but FHA is a solid option too, depending on your situation.

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  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    10y

    House Hack, take the equity you have in your home now, purchase the next one with an FHA loan and live there for next year or two, use the equity you got for the down payment and towards any repairs if needed. try and find another place close to where you are now that may be undervalued, if not go with the area you were thinking. I would keep some of the equity money in reserves just in case anything needs to be done on the first property ( being it is new you do not need much, maybe $5000 ) if anything is left, put it towards a down payment on another investment. i don't know what houses run or if you have equity in your house, but that may be a way to consider.

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y
    Thanks Patrick Liska ! The "area I was thinking" is nearby - within a 1 to 3 mile radius. I can't go too far due to family constraints, nor would I want too, I love it here. As for the equity, there is some but not enough get a HELOC. I've done a couple re-fis over the years, most recently about 13 mos ago. How else can I get at the equity?
  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    10y

    I'm assuming when you refinanced you cashed out some money as well, you may be at your limit then as far as using equity in your house, a lot of banks will not go over the 75% LTV . if you are looking to purchase right away, and do not have enough for the down payment, what about a private lender ? even if its a family member, offer for them to be second lien holder on your house for the amount of money you need to borrow to make your down payment. do not know if any outside lender would do that, you can try and find one, but someone you know may be willing to do that.

  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Shalanna L. Pirtle I would stay where you are until you have enough money saved up to buy another personal residence. Ideally, you would buy a small multi-family, but a single family works too if the numbers work out. You don't need that much to buy the next home if you are going to owner occupy. I would aim for a 5% down conventional, but there are lots of interesting loan programs out there that don't require much. The only reason I wouldn't do FHA is the high PMI that stays forever (unless you refi), but FHA is a solid option too, depending on your situation.

  • Investor · BARRIE, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 52 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    you mentioned what the property options could rent for, but didn't mention cash flow or NOI, so I guess I would suggest looking at your goals and which one will set you up best for getting your next and next!

    I'd assume after 8 years of ownership you have equity in this home. 

    I'd rent your current home, move out into a multi to live/rent and then snowball the cashflow and ur savings into your next downpayment. 

    Moving isn't a big deal. Goodluck!

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    @Dawn Brenengen thanks for that nugget! I was definitely thinking FHA, and having to put 20% down to avoid PMI. But, if I could do something that only requires 5 or 10% and allows me to avoid PMI, I can pursue both avenues much more quickly. Are you aware of anything in particular off the top of your head so I know what to talk to my lender about?

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    @Darren Horrocks, there is not enough equity for a HELOC. I refi'd just about 12 mos ago and wouldn't to do it again now to pull the cash as that would increase the mortgage payment and cut into profits. Re: moving, I'm more concerned about the cost - I haven't priced it specifically for my home, but my current job won't allow the time for me to pack or move myself. Thus, I'm assuming a couple thousand to pay another company to do it. My only concern is if I have to do that a couple years in a row, that expense adds up. Thanks for your thoughts!

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    I would at least consider the tax-free gain you would realize selling your primary if your cost basis is significantly below what it would sell for.  Uncle Sam does not often offer such a blessing!

    If you rent out your primary for less than 3 years, I believe you can still claim at that time, but talk to your tax pro @Shalanna L. Pirtle to be sure!

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    @Steve Vaughan, I believe the use test requires primary residency in two of the last five years. My investment focus is to buy and hold for cash flow and wealth generation so I hadn't even considered a sale but thanks for that thought!

  • Real Estate Professional · Burbank, CA · Member since 2015 · 24 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    Shalanna-

    I am sort of in the same situation as you and I wish you the best! I currently have a primary residence that I am considering making into a rental property and in a sense downgrading (temporarily) to have extra cash to invest. I live in the LA market and our vacancy rates here are less than 5% and it's prime for investors.

    Good luck!

  • Dave FosterBusiness Member
    Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    10y

    @Shalanna L. Pirtle You're thinking to hold that primary and rent it.  The test as you correctly identified is that you have lived in it for 2 out of the previous 5 year period prior to sale.  @Steve Vaughan is right on the money to tell you that you have an additional three years after you convert it to a rental to still take advantage of primary residence exclusion (2 as primary + 3 as rental = 5 total). You can basically get three additional years of tax free appreciation, cash flow and flexibility before you have to make a decision of tax consequence on that property.  You can use this exclusion once every 2 years.

    The 1031 Investor5137 Reviews
  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

     @Dave Foster, @Steve Vaughan - What would influence your decision on whether to sell by that third year or to keep it in the rental portfolio? Couldn't I do a 1031 exchange with those proceeds no matter when I ultimately sell it?

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    @Marty L. good luck to you too! Keep us posted on what you do!

  • Dave FosterBusiness Member
    Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    10y

    @Shalanna L. Pirtle, for me personally I would look at the quality of the rental and balance that against the tax free potential.  If it's a great rental I'd be tempted to keep it because I know I could always 1031 later.

    If it's not a great rental by the time three years is up it will probably not ever be a great rental.  So why hold on against an unlikely occurrence.  Sure you could 1031 anytime but if it's not going to be a great rental and you can take the money tax free now.  Sell it.  Now the money is tax free and if you want to invest it back into real estate fine but you just put all the tax dollars from the sale into your pocket forever - tax free.  

    The 1031 Investor5137 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Shalanna L. Pirtle:

     @Dave Foster, @Steve Vaughan - What would influence your decision on whether to sell by that third year or to keep it in the rental portfolio? Couldn't I do a 1031 exchange with those proceeds no matter when I ultimately sell it?

     The amount of gain.  Tax-free is definitely preferable to tax-deferred, but if the gain is small, it wouldn't matter much either way to me.  

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    Thanks Dave and Steve. Excellent food for thought!!

  • Real Estate Agent · Highland, UT · Member since 2015 · 407 posts · 272 votes
    10y

    What I've missed reading though is how would you finance the next property. If you have no landlord history you'll have to qualify for the new loan with the debt of both homes. ( you can't count income from the rental as income until it's been on your taxes for two years) If that's possiable then making your current home a rental sounds pretty good. Then buying a new home and doing it again.

    If not you could move out and rent until the two years are up to qualify for a traditionalmortgage.

    You could do a lender paid mortgage insurance program where for a slightly higher rate you can have your lender pay the up front mortgage insurance. I'm not sure but I think that is an owener occipied loan program only. I'm sure a lender could correct me.

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Becca Summers. My understanding is I won't need the landlording history at this time since I already otherwise qualify to acquire a number of properties based on my personal debt to income ratio and income. By the time it's an issue, I should have the history I'll need. I've discussed this at length with several lenders, but do let me know (PM me please) if I have missed something!

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    IN light of the fact that you have provided no solid numbers on your present home no one can advise on whether to rent it out or not. I do not believe SFHs are very good for rental purposes based on cash flow but maybe yours is a exception.

    Homeownership is always going to be more expensive than renting, which is why we make money, so for you to buy another home makes very little scenes at this point if you want to invest. 

    Refinancing your present home was a mistake based on your present plans and probably makes more scenes to unload it as it seems to be a financial burden. in addition your personal decisions regarding location, family  and the amount of personal effort you are willing to put into your future plans are going to hamper those plans. Your priorities may be somewhat off the mark.

    What I would do is sell your house, purchase a multi unit and move into the most conservative unit in the building.  This will allow you to get a foot hold in investing, generate some savings, and allow you time to rethink your future.

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    @Thomas S. We have different perspectives for sure. I will 100% disagree with you about home ownership being more expensive than renting an SFH in the Charlotte market and particularly in the 28278 and 28273 zip codes for Steele Creek up for discussion in this post. My decisions to refi were right on the money for where I was 12 mos ago and in prior years, especially as I only began considering REI in the last 3-4 months and began thinking about the possibility of renting my primary residence in the last 72 hours. Hence, the reason for the post. By no means is my home a financial burden, the question at issue was merely how to put it and the savings I already do have to their best and highest use. I'm also not sure how you could possibly assess the amount of effort I am willing to put into my future based off one comment I made about preferring to stay close to family - the family who by the way happens to be my 70+ year old mother who moved to Charlotte solely to be closer to me, her only child, as she ages. I won't bore you with further details on that situation as they frankly have no bearing on the original questions at issue. Your uniformed assessment on that point is what is off the mark, sir. We'll have to agree to disagree on some of your comments but I do appreciate you and others taking the time to respond. Thanks!

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    @Shalanna L. Pirtle I personally like SFH over multi-family mainly because of the effort I have to put in as a part-time landlord. The tenants are mostly families that stay long term. They pay all the utilities and are responsible for yard care. It is really hands off.

    Converting your personal home to a rental may not make sense for your family. I know that is not a financial answer, but if you are in a great neighborhood and your happy, it just may not make sense to leave. That is a valid reason by itself. You could invest elsewhere to get started and still convert your home to a rental in the future. Only you can answer what makes sense for you and your family.

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    Thanks

    @Joe Splitrock! I am very much happy in my neighborhood and don't want to leave, that's why I was looking elsewhere initially. The neighborhood is great. The larger Steele Creek community is already well-defined and established, yet there is lots of exciting development happening all around us. That said, I have the ability to be flexible. It's just my son and I in the house and we are not constrained by schools as he does not attend the neighborhood school. Other than not wanting to go across town too far from my mother, we could move if there was a great opportunity. We are very comfortable where we are but nothing is holding us here and I am willing to sacrifice a little comfort in the short term for greater wealth gain long term IF the numbers work. Stay tuned and I'll keep you posted on the decision!!

  • Chris T.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2013 · 491 posts · 253 votes
    10y

    @Shalanna L. Pirtle - I think you need to ask yourself,"why do you want to move?"  If you are interested in moving to a different house/area even if it were not to get into real estate investing, then I would say you could ignore the costs associated with the move when looking at your numbers as it would not be a business decision, but a personal decision.

    If on the other hand, the only reason you might move is to start your real estate investing, then I would say you should definitely include all costs (packing, moving, your time, etc.) in your cost analysis.  Then as many people will say, "go by the numbers."  If after all your analysis you will get a greater return on your money if you move to a new house and rent your current house, then do that.  If after adding all the costs of the move, it doesn't make sense, then go the route of buying an out right investment property.

    It ultimately is a business decision so make sure you are looking at it as such.

    Best of luck and keep us informed as to what path you take!

  • Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 15 votes
    10y

    Great thoughts Chris T. I had contemplated a move around the time of the last refi but wound up not for other reasons. I'll report back soon, stay tuned!

  • Justin R.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · San Anselmo · Member since 2015 · 659 posts · 600 votes
    10y
    Hello Shalanna, what area in that region has 16 to 20 percent conservative cap rates? Best of luck with whatever decision you make. Justin
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