Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 0 votes
I sold a rental property. Half-way through owning it, I realized that I had failed to begin depreciating it when I bought it, and I started depreciating it. Had I depreciated it from the beginning, I would have accounted for $20,000 of depreciation. In reality, I only accounted for $8,830 of depreciation.
I am using Turbo Tax. Regardless of whether I input $20,000 or $8,830 as prior depreciation, my Federal tax return does not change. However, my state tax return does - inputting $8,830 rather than $20,000 results in a larger State refund ($1,039). I am thinking this is because the feds are going to take depreciation recapture on what I should have taken ($20,000) rather than what I did take ($8,830). However, does California not follow those same rules, and does it only take depreciation recapture on what I actually claim I accounted for in depreciation ($8,830)?
Investor · Bella Vista, AR · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 19 votes
10y
CPA licensed in AR and OK. I'm not sure as to the CA rules. The federal rule is, depreciation must be recaptured up to the amount "allowed or allowable," meaning whether you took the deduction or not. When we get clients who have not taken depreciation in prior years, we take a 481a adjustment to "catch up" the amount they have missed and make an accounting method change on Form 3115. Take a look at http://legacy.nafcc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=110&Itemid=595. You may want to consider hiring a CPA to help you with this.
Investor · Bella Vista, AR · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 19 votes
10y
CPA licensed in AR and OK. I'm not sure as to the CA rules. The federal rule is, depreciation must be recaptured up to the amount "allowed or allowable," meaning whether you took the deduction or not. When we get clients who have not taken depreciation in prior years, we take a 481a adjustment to "catch up" the amount they have missed and make an accounting method change on Form 3115. Take a look at http://legacy.nafcc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=110&Itemid=595. You may want to consider hiring a CPA to help you with this.
Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 0 votes
10y
When I look at the federal worksheets supporting the forms, it shows one form for depreciable property, and another for depreciable property as adjusted for AMT. On the first one, it reflects the number I put in, of actual depreciation ($8830). On the one adjusted for AMT, it shows the number of "allowable" depreciation, what I should have taken ($20K+) Then, the AMT is added to the 1040 to raise my federal taxes and lower my refund. That's what I mean when I say that there is no adjustment on my federal return whether I input $8830 or the $20K+ number. The return basically ignores my $8830 number, and just automatically puts in the $20K+ number and adjusts it through application of the AMT.
But there is a difference for my state return. If I put in the 8830 number, I get a higher state refund (reflecting the lower depreciation I really took). If I put in the 20K number, I get a lower return (reflecting the higher depreciation I could have, but did not take). Can anyone think of any reason why the AMT adjusted number would be used on the Fed return, but not taken over to the State return? Does California not follow the Fed AMT rules? California also has a depreciable property worksheet, and a "depreciable property as adjusted for AMT" worksheet, but the California one does not automatically put in the 20K number for previous depreciation, it is just blank. Basically, does anyone know whether California (or any other state) follows the same rules as the Feds in recapturing "allowable" depreciation as opposed to actual depreciation taken? Believe me, I know this is confusing, I appreciate anyone who is actually looking at it and taking a second to think about it!
Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 0 votes
10y
Thanks Meagan, I will check out that article. I thought I could only go back three years to amend a return, and since the returns I would need to amend are for 2005 to 2010, I would be out of luck. I am talking about a $1,000 swing here, and figuring it would probably cost me that much to hire a CPA to deal with it, especially for filing forms, etc. One question - does a 481A adjustment and accounting method change just count for three previous years, or can you go back to the beginning of owning the property?
Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 0 votes
10y
Hi Katrina - I am learning that the correct way to do this is to file a Form 3115, Application for Change in Accounting Method. (I have a lot to learn about this form!) Then, when you file your taxes, you claim the unaccounted-for depreciation as an expense on your Schedule E, noting it as a "Section 481A adjustment". The form is a real bear (it has already scared off one CPA ...), but I am going to give it a shot and have a different CPA review it. Wish me luck!
Thanks Meagan, I will check out that article. I thought I could only go back three years to amend a return, and since the returns I would need to amend are for 2005 to 2010, I would be out of luck. I am talking about a $1,000 swing here, and figuring it would probably cost me that much to hire a CPA to deal with it, especially for filing forms, etc. One question - does a 481A adjustment and accounting method change just count for three previous years, or can you go back to the beginning of owning the property?
No, you do not need to amend them all back. You can file form 3115 (I recommend having someone else prepare your return this year) That will allow you to take all of the depreciation you SHOULD have taken but didn't in the current year. In addition, do not forget that passive losses are released as well.
Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 0 votes
10y
Thanks Steven. I have since learned more about the topic, and also determined that it is more like a $3,800 swing, so I am definitely going to file the 3115 form. But I am having trouble finding someone to actually do it for me. The closest I have come so far is someone willing to review it if I do it, so I am trying to get up to speed on it, figure out the correct DCN and determine whether it is an automatic change, etc. If you know of any CPA willing to do this, please let me know (I don't know whether CPAs are licensed per state, or nationally).
Thanks Steven. I have since learned more about the topic, and also determined that it is more like a $3,800 swing, so I am definitely going to file the 3115 form. But I am having trouble finding someone to actually do it for me. The closest I have come so far is someone willing to review it if I do it, so I am trying to get up to speed on it, figure out the correct DCN and determine whether it is an automatic change, etc. If you know of any CPA willing to do this, please let me know (I don't know whether CPAs are licensed per state, or nationally).
Thanks!
CPAs are licensed in single states but may offer services in states they are not licensed in as long as those services are not attestation services (audit, reviews, etc).
I think you'll find that real estate CPAs or EAs are happy to take a Form 3115 on. If I were you, I wouldn't want a CPA who is not real estate savvy so you've indirectly benefitted from trying to source a 3115 service by weeding out those that probably aren't real estate savvy :)
Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
10y
@Jason Heath, I just want to point something out as I see that you are a fellow resident of the great State of California. The FTB issued about 20 years ago that said California wouldn't make it as easy on you as the feds make it to take previously unclaimed allowable depreciation. However, in my professional opinion, this notice is gradually being contravened by evolving thinking within the FTB, and you shouldn't have a problem for either federal or California purposes to change your accounting method to take that previously unclaimed depreciation.
And make sure you don't amend. Depending on the years in question, it could actually preclude you from filing Form 3115.
Thanks Steven. I have since learned more about the topic, and also determined that it is more like a $3,800 swing, so I am definitely going to file the 3115 form. But I am having trouble finding someone to actually do it for me. The closest I have come so far is someone willing to review it if I do it, so I am trying to get up to speed on it, figure out the correct DCN and determine whether it is an automatic change, etc. If you know of any CPA willing to do this, please let me know (I don't know whether CPAs are licensed per state, or nationally).
Thanks!
To add to Brandon's post: I won't prepare partial returns. It's all or nothing.
Investor · Bella Vista, AR · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 19 votes
10y
@Jason Heath The reason you aren't seeing a change on the federal return and you are on the CA return when looking at the AMT vs. regular depreciation is due to how the AMT works. When a taxpayer is subject to AMT they pay the higher of the AMT or regular tax. So it doesn't matter what your "regular" depreciation is if the AMT depreciation amount is kicking you into AMT. CA must not have and AMT and it is using the federal "regular" depreciation amount. (I am not familiar with CA tax law so I am not sure on this).
Usually for rental assets, the bulk of the assets do not have an AMT adjustment. 27.5 year and 39 year assets do not have a depreciation difference for regular and AMT depreciation. You will see it on shorter-lived assets though. The difference you mention seems to be caused by missing out on those first years of depreciation.
You may have to look to a larger firm for them to feel comfortable with the 3115.