Newbie's Dilemma

Newbie's Dilemma

Investor · Redlands, CA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 76 votes

Hi Everyone,

Here's the deal. I really want to buy an investment property.

In my area, what really makes sense (at least to me) is a vacation rental. What's great is that one of the nearby areas that is great for VR's actually has some of the most reasonably priced homes. Not because the homes are lower quality, they are just less expensive. (its a lake resort area in southern california). I've spoken to property managers and lenders, and with conservative estimates I believe I would cash flow 300 per month using the lower end of their occupancy range. 

I see this as not just an investment but as an education that may pay me to learn. I will make sure I have reserves and can comfortably pay the mortgage.

Okay so that's all great. Here's the (maybe) problem. I'm a renter.

I pay 2200 a month for a little micro one bedroom apartment. Everyone thinks I'm crazy for buying a rental before my own house. Granted the people giving me this "advice" are more or less broke and are not investors. Still though, their point is well taken. I feel crazy buying a rental first. The problem is that I can't afford a home in my area, or even 30 minutes away from my area. I do however have a 25% down payment for a house in the 150k range which would comfortably buy me a nice vacation rental about 1 hour from my current apartment and leave me with an emergency fund and mortgage reserves.

If I want to keep my current income (which I do) I need to stay put. The geography in my area is such that in order to work in this region you pretty much need to live here or within 20 miles of here to work here. At one point I rented a home only 40 miles away and it was a 2 and a half hour commute each way.

So given all of this info, is it reasonable to purchase an investment property as a renter? If a deal makes sense should it matter if I am a home owner or a renter? Will it hurt my ability to obtain financing significantly? Where I live it would be miraculous to satisfy a .3% rent to value ratio, so investing here really doesn't make sense. Plus if I could afford to do that I would likely buy a owner occupant property first anyway.

Now before anyone tells me I can find a home in my area I can afford... well I believe you. But trust me when I say I have tried. I've found some condos in the 500k range with 400/month HOA dues. I just can't do it! Yes there are affordable areas within 50 miles or so... but like I said, the commute is almost too bad to consider.

I'm sure I left some info out, so please ask any questions that would be helpful, and feel free to tell me I'm crazy, my family already has! lol. I appreciate any advice anyone has offer. What would you do?

Thanks for the help BP.

Trevor

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Real Estate Investor · Grass Valley, CA · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 85 votes
12y

As a fellow Southern Californian, I definitely get it. And I did exactly what you are talking about. I purchased an investment property and kept renting. I was single and had a killer deal on rent at the time, and so it was an easy decision. Your rent is higher and I'm sure it hurts to pay that every month, but still, I'd stay put and invest in the vacation rental if it makes financial sense. And then look for a cheaper rental (if any even exist). If the investment home appreciates, you can always use the equity as a tool to buy other properties down the road, or even to help you buy a SFH if that is what your situation dictates. Even if it doesn't appreciate the way you hope, if you are cash-flowing and your numbers are sound, then it is still a nice asset that can be used towards your rent, your next downpayment, or whatever else. So I wouldn't worry about not owning a SFH right now. And I'm generally a pro homeownership kind of guy.

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  • Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Welcome to Biggerpockets!

    You are at the right place for crazy :) My husband and I own 5 rental all bought by "legal" by crazy out of the box methods. Are friends think I am certifiable but smart lol. My husband is active duty military so we move around ALOT. We started buying personals and than self managing them when we leave. As I was able to find work in my professional field we would live off one income and invest my money into real estate.

    We invest in class A investments. This lets us manage them from afar. Our margins are smaller but so our are vacancies and expenses. We have done very well from finding unique niches that work for us. 

    If you think Vacation rental will work go! Go for it!!!!

    If there is anyone that you connect with, check out there blog in the signature. Many of us including myself talk about our niche, business model, etc. This is a great way for you to learn more!

  • Investor · Redlands, CA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 76 votes
    12y

    @Elizabeth Colegrove 

    Thank you for the affirmation, excited to see your site in a couple of weeks! 

    Trevor

  • Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Trevor Lohman 

    If you buy some vacation rentals, I look forwarding to hearing about it. That is our next step.

  • Nyack, NY · Member since 2013 · 27 posts · 6 votes
    12y
    Would you be able to find a multi family property and live in one unit?
  • Rehabber · Niantic, CT · Member since 2012 · 443 posts · 150 votes
    12y

    Hi @Trevor Lohman - do you know a good financial planner you could bounce this off of? Or perhaps a CPA? Someone who could really break apart the numbers, tax implications, all of that stuff.

    I'm not qualified to speak to the best route on this, both in my lack of experience in that arena and in not knowing all of your specifics. However, here in CT, I have an investor friend who runs his own company, owns a ton of multis and is in the midst of a large project to convert a former convalescent home into an apartment building. He is a former vice president of a bank and is very well-regarded and quite successful ... and he rents an apartment in a very affordable town. I don't know all of the details about why he is renting vs owning, but from what I can tell, it's not slowing down his business growth. He has been casually looking for a place to buy, but meanwhile, he's building an empire!

    I guess the point is, you can make it work no matter what your circumstance. Of course, always do your due diligence and run through all possible scenarios. And then when you make your decision, go for it!

  • SFR Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 604 posts · 243 votes
    12y

    In your situation there is nothing 'crazy' about renting while investing.

    I would recommend finding someone with experience in vacation rentals (I have none) and talking to them about the deal, I'm sure they have a different set of formulas/problems/issues,,,that doesn't mean your deal is bad, just get someone with that specific type of rental experience to look at them for you

    andy

  • Investor · Stamford, CT · Member since 2012 · 247 posts · 63 votes
    12y

    Personally, I don't think it makes a difference if you're a renter--there's no rule that says you have to own/occupy your home before you start investing.  I mean really, if you own rental properties, you still own, right?  Whatever situation works for you is best, whether you're where you are currently because of work proximity, affordability, etc.--there's no hard/fast rule.  

    I'm in a similar situation. After my divorce I decided to rent for a while, since I was in a transitional phase--I didn't want to be tied down to a property if I decided to move.  Sure enough, my daughter & I moved to another city to be closer to her school.  Waay too expensive to buy here, though--so I plan to still rent while buying & holding in a less-expensive (but not too far away) area. 

    Either way, you'll have to either pay rent or a mortgage, lol. If the deals are good & you invest right, your cash flow will benefit you regardless.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 400 posts · 223 votes
    12y

    I rent a house and own rental properties. The calculus is really very simple -- I want to live in a nice, desirable, safe neighborhood, where landlords get killed with high house prices and low rents. I want to own in working-class areas where properties are cheap to buy, but I wouldn't necessarily live there. And I see no reason to, either, because I pay only a small premium for rent over what my tenants pay me.

    The homebuyers keep driving prices in great neighborhoods to the moon, so they're paying more in PITI than I pay for rent. To me, the decision to rent is a no-brainer. The really funny part is that I pick up rentals in the city proper that would sell for 10x as much in my neighborhood, which is less than 5 miles away. It's a crazy world.

    The most important thing to remember is this: never let favorable borrowing terms turn a bad deal into a good one. Yes, you can buy that duplex in the nice neighborhood for 3.5% down, but when your cashflow is -$500/mo, is it really a good deal, especially if your entire investment strategy is based on property values going up?

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    I think you'd be nuts to think you have to own your own home before an investment property. Owning your own home, in my opinion, isn't even a good investment. I tell people I live in SoCal and they ask if I own a home and I say no and they say, "but I thought you were a real estate investor". I tell them, yes, I am a good real estate investor, which is why I don't own a house in Venice Beach where I live. 

    Owning your own home and owning investment properties are two different things for most. Maybe not in some markets where you can buy cheap, but in SoCal they are two different things.

    Which lake community are you talking about?

  • Real Estate Investor · Grass Valley, CA · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 85 votes
    12y

    As a fellow Southern Californian, I definitely get it. And I did exactly what you are talking about. I purchased an investment property and kept renting. I was single and had a killer deal on rent at the time, and so it was an easy decision. Your rent is higher and I'm sure it hurts to pay that every month, but still, I'd stay put and invest in the vacation rental if it makes financial sense. And then look for a cheaper rental (if any even exist). If the investment home appreciates, you can always use the equity as a tool to buy other properties down the road, or even to help you buy a SFH if that is what your situation dictates. Even if it doesn't appreciate the way you hope, if you are cash-flowing and your numbers are sound, then it is still a nice asset that can be used towards your rent, your next downpayment, or whatever else. So I wouldn't worry about not owning a SFH right now. And I'm generally a pro homeownership kind of guy.

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2012 · 128 posts · 56 votes
    12y

    @Trevor Lohman   that's not crazy at all. You made a solid case for your reasons to consider buying an income property and it sounds like you're doing your homework. There are so many benefits to owning, but you don't have to live in your property to be a great investor. 

    Vacation rentals can generate higher rents than long-term rentals, but they're more work in terms of ongoing marketing and management. Top-rated vacation rentals have highly responsive management, from inquiries to bookings, and focus on quality service.

    Technology has helped the industry rapidly evolve, from remote door locks to online monitoring and management systems. Combine this with consumers' embrace of the sharing-economy, and it's a great time to be an owner.

    I started an interview series on my blog with vacation rental owners, including a super nice guy on this forum (thanks @Joe Sillaman  )!  I would try to focus on getting advice from actual owners versus the naysayers.

    You might consider attending the HomeAway Summit in San Diego this fall. It's very well run, and you'll be able to network with owners and investors. I'm speaking on the investor panel, so let me know if you go.

    Good luck and remember to focus on your own goals and the numbers. 

  • Investor, Real Estate Agent · San Juan Capistrano, CA · Member since 2013 · 150 posts · 65 votes
    12y

    Yo Trevor!  I'm in a very similar situation... I live down in Dana Point and I can't justify even buying a small condo within 20 miles of me.  I've been flipping for 5 years and have been wanting to pick up a couple buy and holds, but think how can i do that before I buy my own home?  I really appreciate what everyone has commented on this topic, maybe it isn't as crazy after all 

    as for the vacay rental... i would remember to factor in cleaning fees (which could be passed on to the renters) as well as any extra tax for the lake resort.  My family has a condo in mammoth lakes that we vacation rental out and the city takes a hefty extra tax.  

  • Investor · Redlands, CA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 76 votes
    12y

    Wow!

    I was not expecting this much awesome advice. I think I have jotted some notes down from each or your replies so thank you very much. Glad to see so many fellow southern california people in similar positions.

    @Ali Boone Originally I was looking at Lake Arrowhead, after talking to some realtors who are also investors up there I'm now looking at both Big Bear Lake and Lake arrowhead. I've been told big bear is less seasonal because it has the lake in the summer and ski resorts in the winter, where as lake arrowhead is 20 minutes away from the closest ski resort. I personally enjoy lake arrowhead more, and don't mind driving 20 minutes to ski, but I imagine as a vacation renter you're going to pick the place thats ski slope adjacent when looking on airbnb. 

    I have a lot to consider, and I plan on doing my due diligence, but it is really great to hear that what matters is the deal, and not whether I'm renting or not. 

    @Bill Larsen will do. I factored cleaning into my "college" math but I need to put some better numbers together and meet with some other investors before I'd feel comfortable with anything.

    @Susan Gillespie I'm going to go check out your blog right now, sounds awesome!

    @George Fitz Exactly! It's crazy out here. I'm in Newport Beach now, but am looking at places in Tustin and orange. Just having trouble since I have a dog. But yes that is the goal. Glad to hear you pulled it off, hopefully I'll be there soon.

    Thank you again for all of your insight everyone. I'll be back with more questions once I have some numbers and ideas together.

    Thanks guys!

    Trevor

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    I was just up in Lake Arrowhead looking at properties for my parents to potentially move there. We worked with a realtor all day and saw lots of properties. I think the consideration you'd want to have for Arrowhead vs. Big Bear is what kind of vacationers you are wanting to attract. Yes Bear has the skiing, but also too the snow has been horrible here the last couple years and a lot of times the people attracted to the slopes are the (young and dumb? lol). Certainly some families and older folks, but true travelers looking for slopes are going to go to Mammoth for vacation, not Bear. Arrowhead, in my opinion, would be better for appreciation later too, it's a much higher-quality area than Bear. But then the seasonal thing may be more of a thing there too like you say. Hard to say. Either way, I would talk to vacation property managers in both places and really get in depth info as much as possible and then weigh it from there. 

    I'll be in both those areas this winter so let me know if you are ever out there!

  • Investor · Redlands, CA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 76 votes
    12y

    I like Arrowhead a lot more myself so I'm leaning that direction as well. I'll look at numbers in both places just to be sure though.

    Thanks for the advice, and yea that sound awesome! Mind if I ask who your realtor was?

  • Property Manager · Big Bear Lake, CA · Member since 2013 · 585 posts · 330 votes
    12y

    @Trevor Lohman 

    Hello, I live in Big Bear and manage vacation rentals as well as full-time rentals. First of all, I have to respectfully disagree with Ali Boone. She said that true travelers looking for slopes are going to go to Mammoth, not Big Bear. Not true at all. Big Bear is extremely busy with families and skiers vacationing all winter. Most people come up because it is so close to San Diego and L.A. Summer is pretty busy too.

    Trevor, if you would like to call and ask me questions about vacation rentals in Big Bear, I'm happy to help. I've been doing this for a lot of years. 909-366-5555. Michelle

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Is the $300 per month NOI? What's the asking price?

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 66 posts · 25 votes
    12y

    Heading to Lake A this weekend. Some family have a cabin up there that we use now and then. Big caution as with all HOA. Assosiation up there can be super steep.

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 13 votes
    12y

    Hi Trevor,

    I think you are smart to rent in Tustin.  My best investment ever was buying a condo in Mammoth in the 90s and selling it in 2009 but I got lucky.  If Mammoth is anything like Lake arrowhead the management will eat All of your cash flow and then some.   It still can be a good investment if you have the time to do the work and it will most likely appreciate!

    Best of wishes to you

    Pam

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