I bought a negative cash flow property, and it's a good thing I did!

I bought a negative cash flow property, and it's a good thing I did!

Investor · La Grande, OR · Member since 2014 · 194 posts · 176 votes

First off a few notes:

1. My area would be considered remote by most (the closest town with over 15,000 people is 80 miles).

2. My area is considered low income, as most folks work for less than $15 per hour at the Lumber Mill or Travel Trailer Manufacturing Plant.

3. The 1% rule is great if you can find it, and the 2% rule is impossible to attain.  Most 1 Bedroom Apartments in my area rent for $400.

So, with that in mind I will get started. I just finished rehabbing a four plex I bought for $150K (Yellow Letters do work, FYI). The building was vacant when I bought it, so doing a full on rehab was easy. 4 New water heaters, 19 New windows, 4 units worth of carpet and paint, and $2,000 worth of appliances.  I did almost all of this work myself, but still ended up spending close to $10,000.

I am now placing tenants and earning some money. Yay for me! I bought this property with $0 down (another yay for me!) however this means that my payment is pretty high; $1,052 monthly plus $150 in taxes and insurance. So, when it is all said and done I actually lose $50 per month once I take out 10% for vacancy and 10% for CapEx/Maintenance. What a mess!

Here is why this is a great problem to have: 

1. Because I bought this property with $0 down I only have my fix-up money invested.

2. Because all the money I normally would have used as a downpayment went into improvements, my property is sitting pretty with a value closer to $200K.

3. Because of my new found equity I can now refinance with a local credit union, saving 2% on the rate, and flipping my negative $50 cash flow to a positive $300 cash flow with a 30 year note.

In closing, when evaluating a property remember what your end goal is, and all the different ways you can get there. Most folks I have worked with would have rather found a $150K rent ready property and put $10K down, which is a great plan if you can find it. I chose to find a junker property and spend that same $10K improving the property, thereby making a cool $35K in equity for later on down the road. Even at this point most folks would have never done this deal because they would see the negative cash flow. But Real Estate is more like Chess than Checkers, so looking two steps ahead is a must. 

I bought a junker property that has negative cash flow, and it just might be my best deal to date.

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Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
12y

@Mike Sattem   I would prefer option 2 every time, because what I do with real estate is I want to get them paid down quickly which reduces risk, which we all should be calculating for.   When the market tanks and renters become scarce, the person who put nothing down and has the larger mortgage payment is going to be in a worse financial position then someone who pays down the balance and has a much lower mortgage payment.  Plus the equity is much great with cash in the game should you need to sell in an emergency.   I believe most people don't calculate for risk and leave that out of their calculations with the impression that things can only go well.

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  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2010 · 99 posts · 20 votes
    12y
    I like the chess analogy! How did you manage to put no money down? Did you use private money up front then refi'd into a conventional?
  • Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
    12y
    What happens if the market tanks and you have negative cash flow and negative equity. Just remember the market can go up or down, not just up.
  • Investor · La Grande, OR · Member since 2014 · 194 posts · 176 votes
    12y

    @Sebastian Gast  I placed the equity in a property I already own down as collateral with a commercial lender. The lender placed a lien against this property, but there is no payment.

    @Marcus Johnson  Negative equity is only an issue if you need to sell, and as a multi-family property the value is primarily derived from rents collected, not what a single family home buyer would be willing to spend. Additionally, as per my post, I am in the process of refinancing the property to now cash flow $300 per month, and will only have to make 1 loan payment on the commercial loan where I "lose money".

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 481 posts · 189 votes
    12y

    Hi @Mike Sattem ,

    Thanks for sharing the story. I am always a big fan against buying negative cash flow building, but it make sense in your scenario.

    Keep up the good work!

    Huy

  • Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
    12y
    So if you would have out 20% down, you'd have 70k in equity and much higher cash flow then only having 40k and $300 a month cash flow.
  • Investor · La Grande, OR · Member since 2014 · 194 posts · 176 votes
    12y

    @Marcus Johnson  Very True. Any property can cash flow if you put enough money down. The important part of this story is to remember that I bought this property with no money down, spent $10K on the rehab, and then refinanced the property allowing me to gain a cash flowing property and getting me my fix up money back so that I rinse and repeat the entire process over again in perpetuity. I financed all of my closing costs into the loans, and was refunded my earnest money because I had no expenses at closing. 

    The way I see this comparison is below. I would choose option 1 every time.

    1. $0 down for $300 a month

    2. $20K down for $700 a month

  • Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Congratulations!

    We also operate on very tight margins. We have done very well for ourselves. We have done turned primary properties into rentals and also pure investment. We self manage and have done the flips our self to keep the costs down as much as possible. It became the talk of party conversation that I create [REMOVED] to go over how we do it. :) Can't wait to see your next success story on this site.

  • Curtis BidwellPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes
    12y

    @Marcus Johnson True.  But your cash-on-cash return drops dramatically while you tie up that money that could be going into another deal thereby multiplying your asset base.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Hattiesburg, MS · Member since 2011 · 475 posts · 141 votes
    12y

    That is one hellacious list of renovations for $10,000!  

    But how do you figure price appreciation on a multi that is cash flow negative in a low income, low volume, repressed market?

    There can't be many comps for 4 unit properties in a town that small.  I fear that you are going to run into trouble when it comes time to appraise the property for the refi.  I would be sure to go ahead and do the appraiser's job for him and hunt down every supporting comp possible and hand deliver a list of comps you've found the day of the appraisal.  

    The last thing you want is a lazy appraiser to come in and bomb your value and now you either have to come up with cash to get the LTV down or hope the previous owner is willing to carry the note full term.

    Keep us posted on how things progress.   

  • Investor · La Grande, OR · Member since 2014 · 194 posts · 176 votes
    12y

    @Ed L.  You are absolutely spot on about comps, as in there hasn't been a four plex sold within 50 miles of me within two years! One great thing I have learned working with appraisers, is that typically their numbers for vacancy/capex/management are either very low, or none existent. The appraiser doesn't see me put away 25-30% of my net rent for these costs and thereby make this a negative cash flow property, they see me pocketing several hundred dollars, sneaky I know :).   Additionally, the equity increase was due partially to increasing the rents from the previous landlord since the place was a dump when i bought it.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Awesome!! I'm right there with you on the $300 vs. $700 with $20k down. Your NPV is much better with the smaller cash flow and leveraging the $20k for other opportunities. Good job. Very instructional.
  • Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
    12y

    @Mike Sattem   I would prefer option 2 every time, because what I do with real estate is I want to get them paid down quickly which reduces risk, which we all should be calculating for.   When the market tanks and renters become scarce, the person who put nothing down and has the larger mortgage payment is going to be in a worse financial position then someone who pays down the balance and has a much lower mortgage payment.  Plus the equity is much great with cash in the game should you need to sell in an emergency.   I believe most people don't calculate for risk and leave that out of their calculations with the impression that things can only go well.

  • Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
    12y

    @Curtis Bidwell   Although that is true, someone who has 10 properties with nothing in the game has little networth, lots of assets and tons of debt, with ok cash flow.  I'd rather have 5 properties, lots of equity, high cash flow and much lower debt and risk.  Plus there are more expensives with 10 properties then there are with 5.  

  • Curtis BidwellPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes
    12y

    @Marcus Johnson Each one needs to invest according to their risk tolerance, and I would never push someone into something they are not confident and knowledgable about.  Just remember that you pay for your cash flow, it is not magic money.  In the scenario above Mike's $300/mo cash flow cost him nothing for an infinite return on investment!  His option 2 would cost $20,000 of his cash savings and reserves for $700/mo cash flow. While a 42% return is nice by any standard, infinite returns are still better!

    As to market downturns, I carried 85 units through the recent recession. The point was made above that you only get hurt if you have to sell.  I didn't have to sell and low interest rates kept our payments low. I had times when I reduced rents to maintain full occupancy, but always maintained profitability.

    Mike is not encouraging foolish purchases, but rather thinking and planning beyond the purchase to see where value and profits may be available in a property that others don't see the value in.

  • Investor · La Grande, OR · Member since 2014 · 194 posts · 176 votes
    12y

    @Curtis Bidwell  Very Well Put.

  • Rental Property Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 342 posts · 123 votes
    12y

    Very interesting. I have heard of people doing similar deals to get cash to buy another property.

    I have heard the term yellow letter several times, what does that mean specifically? Is that just a printed letter on yellow paper or is it note book yellow paper with a hand written note?

    Just wondering since someone sent a yellow note book letter to me about a property I own.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    The way I look at these kind of deals is that only time will really tell. Especially if you're in an area without known appreciation and lots of sales to support comps.   From my perspective it looks like you used a lot of your time/energy and $10K+ in cash to buy $35K in equity, which is a good thing. But it's equity that you can't access without selling or refinancing.  If you sold, you'd pay for a listing and closing costs, and come out making $15K for putting in $10K.  Not a bad return, but a lot of work, plus the time/value of money issue.  Besides, the goal isn't to sell and you bought it as a hold for cash flow. 

    The upside would be banking on appreciation that you can access, or greater rents (which are often harder to get in rural areas). That's what a lot of CA buyers do. Do you see either happening in your market?

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 451 posts · 96 votes
    12y

    @Marcus Johnson 

    @Curtis Bidwell 

    @Mike Sattem 

    I like all three of your views on this.

    By the way Mike thanks for this thread.

    I do believe its a persons risk tolerance that matters overall. I like the idea of carrying as little debt as possible, but honestly if I see where I can own four units, have them rented out and owe $50 a month on a less than $200K mortgage. I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd like the idea of having another piece of property to increase my holdings and after a year I could go up on the rents (not by much) and turn it into a positive cash flow. My unused down payment money can offset any problems that occur that first year.

  • Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2014 · 246 posts · 89 votes
    12y

    @Mike Sattern
    Nicely done, thanks for sharing!

    Sebastian

  • Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
    12y

    @Curtis Bidwell

    It must be very rewarding for you to have achieved 82 properties and for that you should commend yourself.  Although your way worked for you, I wouldn't recommend it for anyone who would ask me.   Risk is a calculation that affects the outcome of cash flow, debt and the decision on what to invest in.  Some investors are willing to take a large risk and levarage their way into multiple properties.  Statistically, for most people it will ruin them financially.  All it takes is a market down turn, rental decrease, more vacanies due to the economy, a death in the family, a job loss, income loss.  All of these factors can ruin one's financial world.   

    Although Mike's cash flow is currently at $300 a month, he still has a very high mortgage payment and not a ton of equity which can take a 30% to 40% dive like it did in the housing crash of 2008 and 2009.   That dive also hurt rental rates, because people couldn't afford the high costs of renting, which at that time hurt property owners cash flow, which in result led to difficulty in paying ones mortgage.   In turn those who needed out of the rental, couldn't sell without bringing money to the table.   

    So, yes just using mathematics without calculating for risk, this deal looks to good to be true and as a result, it is most of the time.  So on that note, I don't recommend leveraging beyond your means and putting more of your money into each deal and to allow the extra cash flow to pay down the mortgage and to gain equity.   To me, it's more about not taking such high risks and it's more about being able to withstand any horrible disaster that took place in 2008 and 2009, that bankrupted so many people.   

    As they say, risk=rewards, well risk also ='s great losses.  

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Curtis Bidwell:

    Just remember that you pay for your cash flow, it is not magic money.  In the scenario above Mike's $300/mo cash flow cost him nothing for an infinite return on investment!  His option 2 would cost $20,000 of his cash savings and reserves for $700/mo cash flow. While a 42% return is nice by any standard, infinite returns are still better!

    .

    From my reading, Mike's $300/mo cash flow cost him $10K+ in cash out-of-pocket, plus a ton of sweat equity as he admits to doing all the repairs himself on a 4-plex.  IMO, you cannot compare deals where the investor does all the rehab to those where the investor pays for rehab.  There's no real way to put an accurate cost on repairs done by owners .  

    That $300/mo will continue to cost him time as it looks like he's self managing.  Additionally he mentions a refi that hasn't happened yet.  The real loan and numbers remain to be seen.  We don't know if the refi is only the $150K purchase price, or if he's able to get more and cash out to pay him back on the rehab or use on another investment.

    But you are correct in that everyone has to decide for themselves.  Self managing a 4-plex for $300/mo cash flow and not much equity sounds terrible to me.  Unless I was confident about possible appreciation or increasing rents and unless there was a high demand for the units, I'd never sign up for such a deal.

  • Investor · La Grande, OR · Member since 2014 · 194 posts · 176 votes
    12y

    @Michael J.  I purchased this property from an 83 year gentlemen who currently lives 250 miles away, and hadn't been to the property in 6 years. I purchased a list of multi-family properties from my tax assessors office and then narrowed my list to only long distance owners. I mailed each a "yellow letter" with a simple tagline, I want to buy your property and can purchase the property on whatever terms you want, whether that be a traditional loan, or owner carry. About 15% responded, and while most wanted over market value for their property, this gentlemen was desperate and didn't know what to do, so he sold it to me at a slight discount from market.

  • Investor · Apple Valley, MN · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 94 votes
    12y

    @Timothy Riley

    Your assuming that the buyer has unused DP to have as backup money after the deal is made.  I personally cannot imagine having 4 properties costing me $50.00 a month and be ok with that.  I strive for equity and cash flow in a good neighborhood to make my efforts worth while.   Also, holdings mean nothing if all you have is lots of assets and equal amount of debt.  That just means you have no networth.  

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 451 posts · 96 votes
    12y

    Marcus maybe you misunderstood my response. my thought was 1 property 4 units, and I would jump on it if I had unused DP. It's a building that would cost me some time and less than cable.

  • Investor · Chantilly, VA · Member since 2014 · 249 posts · 31 votes
    12y

    @Mike Sattem - Great example. But I am hesitant, it may not work for others.

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