Time to Redesign The BiggerPockets Influence Point System? Your Feedback Please!

Time to Redesign The BiggerPockets Influence Point System? Your Feedback Please!

Joshua D.Pro Member
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

Hey guys -
The original purpose of our influence system was to incentivize our members to become active, and to find a way to figure out who those members are that others deem to be influential, credible, and are overall leaders in the community at a point in time.

Unfortunately, from the start the system was flawed, and I can't tell you how many inane discussions I've had with people over the past few years about it.

We've spent far too much time trying to catch those people who simply manipulate the system for personal gain, and have created a system that is ultimately fairly meaningless.

While it is in our interest to create a system that rewards people that participate and help the site, I believe that as it currently stands, the point system is looked at as a negative by far more people than look at it positively.

So . . . I'm turning to you for your feedback.

I believe that we must redesign the point system from scratch and hopefully as a community, we can come up with ways to make something that works.

Here are my thoughts:
1 - Points need to reflect a user's activity and influence at a point in time, and as such, I believe we should find a way to depreciate these over time. If a user was very active and influential a year ago, but hasn't been on the site since, their points shouldn't be at the top of our charts -- it makes no sense.

2 - In order to incentivize ALL members - old and new alike - to strive to become "influential," they need to see that they can attain a "score" that ranks amongst the leaders. It is virtually impossible for a new member to rank in the top 10 influence points without doing a fair share of activities on the site that I'd deem to be manipulative of the system.

3 - We need to create a system that all but removes the ability for users to manipulate the system. Over the years, some of the activities people have utilized to game the system include:
a) Voting schemes in our bulletin and forum systems, where users would vote for one another to raise their influence.
b) Inviting and creating fake users on the site to gain referral influence.
c) Posting garbage in our forums, blog, and bulletin systems to gain points.
d) Starting topics just to get points.
e) and so on

4 - The current system doesn't have a way to distinguish between those people who post a lot and those people who post things that others find to be valuable. Can we find a way to incentivize quality contributions, but eliminate the ability to "cheat"?

5 - Should a new system take one's actual expertise into account? How would we go about doing that? Perhaps allowing people to tag other users as experts in specific areas would be a better way to go?

Additional thoughts:
Instead of making a single influence category, we break the system into different weighted categories to calculate an overall score that is simply on a 0-100 scale.

This could take into account things like: a) votes, b) some average pertaining to the number of times/categories the user is deemed an expert in c) contributions to the site (inviting members, posting, participating, sharing) d) trailing time period activity level (eg 1 month), e) testimonials, f) negative factors (violating the rules, spam, times a user is flagged by other members or some other negative 'handicap')

So, the most "influential" members would have a score closer to 100, while the least would be closer to zero. Everyone would compete on the same scale, making it more fair and creating an environment where everyone has a shot to be a leader.

Ultimately, the final algorithm would reflect those factors that matter, and someone who has been around for 3 months and someone on site for 5 years could have the same level of expertise in a fairer scoring model. It would truly be a reflection of both influence and credibility - something we desperately need.

I know that there is a lot to chew on here . . . any thoughts?

NOTE: We'll save a discussion on awards for another day . . . these should and would be reflective of the new influence system

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Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
15y

Josh

You could have a dual system. The current system is really a "contribution" system. The more you contribute the higher your points. Contributions are great because they drive site activity. You could then have the "expertise" system in which people vote on original blog and forum posts. For blogs you could have a check box which asks if the blog post is your own or a reproduction. I would also make the voting system blind.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    Josh, I agree that the system is flawed, but what system is not! Secondly, I like where you are going with this, but am afraid it to could be flawed/abused and not only that, difficult to implement (not to mention a cost factor for you).

    If members could be tagged as experts in something, that too could become a popularity contest, giving a false result.

    I think the two biggest flaws to the system are the bulletin post point credits and once active, but no longer active members who built points up. Perhaps it could be as simle as removing credit for bulletin posts, going through to find the ones who abused that and removing those points. Then go through and find the high influence point members who are no longer active and initiate a point penalty for inactivity.

    Finally, while I think the 1-100 system sounds great, I don't believe taht a new or newer member should have any ability to obtain a high level quickly as that would be unfair to those who have spent many months or many years contributing in many ways.

    While it is flawed, I feel that teh current system has its value and I find that members with negative influence allows me to flag spammers and those who pay no attention to your rules. It also allows me to measure how much activity a poster has engaged in when cross-referenced to when they joined These are factors I use and find them very useful right now with the current system. I also make a personal note to downgrade points to those I know have manipulated their score.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    Bodybuilding.com has a useful 'Reputation' system in place.

    While there are 'rep trades' going on there, it is much less prone to manipulation that occurs here.

    There, you're able to add or subtract reputation from someone. The downfall is that you're able to see who gave you the positive or negative reputation. If that was implemented here without the additional ability to see who's given or taken away, I would be a believer in it.

    Regardless of what or how you do it, if people are active on this board long enough, they'll know who's legit and who's not. Regardless of how many bulletins or blogs they post with the permission of the author along with whatever other ways that are currently being used.

    I haven't been a believer in the existing system for sometime having watched it get exploited openly but if things were to change, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would welcome it.

  • Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
    15y

    Holy smokes Nick I didn't know you visit bb.com. I'm a mainstay there and yes their rep system is useful a bit flawed itself due to countless rep trading.

    But to be honest implementing that same system here would be more detrimental than the current system as I can see overuse of the rep system with constant rep trading unless there is a way to moderate that kind of system which unfortunately isn't the case over at bb.com

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    same username there. The misc section is constant entertainment.

    Their rep system does have some flaws but its more useful than BP's current system and if implemented, I do believe it could be much easier to moderate. I'm almost positive you won't see any SRT threads in BP ya know...

  • Lexington, KY · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    I'll throw my thoughts out there. First, I think it is ridiculous that people try to game the system and honestly I was not aware that it was happening all that often. Second, I think less emphasis needs to be put on activity points. If you are active and are giving good advise/feedback/etc you are going to gain points by people voting for your posts. I think the voting feature is the bread and butter of a reputation system.

    Another idea I is to create a recommendation system where you can leave a recommendation on someone's profile based on a deal or interaction with them.

    In the end I agree with Nick...if you are on enough you will know who is legit and who is not.

  • Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Nick J.:
    same username there. The misc section is constant entertainment.

    LOL I used to be an avid poster in the misc but the constant trolling turned me off. I basically hang out in the misc sub forums,and the weightlifting/supplement forums.

    Yeah you might be right. I think the rep system over there might work here as long as it can be easily moderated.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    15y

    Josh

    You could have a dual system. The current system is really a "contribution" system. The more you contribute the higher your points. Contributions are great because they drive site activity. You could then have the "expertise" system in which people vote on original blog and forum posts. For blogs you could have a check box which asks if the blog post is your own or a reproduction. I would also make the voting system blind.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    I like Justin's idea and it has been brought up several times before. I think there should be "SME" (subject matter expert) categories so people can link with experts in different fields. For instance, Scott Hubbard would score very well on short sales. Darryl Dahlen would score very well on commercial lending. Etc...

  • Commercial Real Estate Lender / Syndicator · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 888 posts · 309 votes
    15y

    I have been on bulletin boards since the 80s. We used POTS lines and a modem to dial up ONE computer at a time. I can tell you from experience, every point system can be manipulated.

    For example, the rep based system mentioned here has been around a long time in numerous forms. People just end up sprinkling pixie dust on their buds. Then as soon as someone outside the klick disagrees...bamb!..negative influence.

    I propose NO point system at all. NOTHING - NO number of posts, NO influence, NO awards, NO points, nada!

    I suggest this be like real life, except you have no opportunity to judge anyone by how they are dressed or whether they are tall, short, fat, beautiful, ugly, or what ever.

    We want people to spend time on this site, we want them to read, we want them to learn. Right?

    Well then, force everyone to read posts and determine for themselves who they find credible and trustworthy.

  • Commercial Loan Officer · Southern Maine, ME · Member since 2009 · 782 posts · 415 votes
    15y

    I agree that it would be nice to have a system that acknowledges people's contribution according to their knowledge and not necessarily the amount of posts.

    This is primarily because I'm not one to post just to get my post count up. It's also due to the fact that while I'm here every day I may not post anything for a week or more just because there are no threads where I have anything of value to contribute.

    It's not that I'm unwilling to participate. I am, but being in the commercial loan business, there are times where there isn't much activity on BP relating to my field. It would be unfortunate to be penalized due to lack of activity in those instances.

    I know the ultimate goal is to get people to participate more, but I know you also don't want to encourage false participation where people are more concerned with their post count/influence than the quality of their posts.

    Personally, I'm a fan of the voting system since that provides a good indicator of the quality of what one is posting. Post good content and you'll get votes. Post drivel and you'll get nada. Seems fair.

    That said, I don't know as we really need points for starting threads or replying in them. IMO, that sort of system paves the way for people to post just to post and/or start subpar topics. Why should anyone get any points for filling threads with "I agree" or "tell us more"?

    Perhaps instead of the generic voting system we have where you either vote or don't vote we could have a quality rating system instead that gives us options when voting.

    After all, some threads/responses are superb, some are OK, and some make me dumber for reading them. Why not be able to give a vote that indicates the quality for each?

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    Carlos has a point too. Josh, why can't you decide who makes good posts and give them an "At-a-boy" a star, a point, what ever you like and leave it at that? Otherwise, what you come up with that allows the members to contribute toward such points, you'll have clicks, groups, buddies and those who will, knowingly or unknowingly, influence the system.

    Thinking too that new members may not have the knowledge to contribute to any point system, there may not be much participation or it may be misguided.

    Making posts for the sake of showing activity should not be a goal of members. I have signed in many times without seeing anything that really needed to be said.

    I think if it were my site, I would take the responsibility of simply assigning points myself for great posts and activity. I would also deduct points for other activities as needed. Or, having a secret panel who reviews comments and assigns points with my approval. That's if I owned the site. Otherwise, you'll always be dealing with social groups.

  • Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Bryan Hancock:
    I like Justin's idea and it has been brought up several times before. I think there should be "SME" (subject matter expert) categories so people can link with experts in different fields. For instance, Scott Hubbard would score very well on short sales. Darryl Dahlen would score very well on commercial lending. Etc...

    I completely agree. Although I have been in about every aspect of the business, I have only had 42 properties at one time, so I am not really an athority on rentals. I have only been involved with one multi million dollar commercial rental, so although I do know some things about it, I am not a genius. When It comes to flipping contracts or rehabs, I have done hundreds!

    With that said, I agree there should be a scale with different catagories and as bar graph or number next to each with the amount of experience. (only flaw, this would require people to be honest)

    There should be an influence for those that are still in the research mode too. I value opinions of everyone, even those that have just studdied the subject for years. I do not have the time to read up on new things all of the time, but it would be good to hear the insight of those that read up on everything.

    Not so sure an overall socre is necessary anymore. I dont even know how mine was compiled.

    Maybe just a quick summary, investing since..., BP member since...., expert in..., etc..., kinda like a baseball card.

    Overall, I think the site is great, and I really do not even pay that close of attention to the influence numbers of others anymore. I think it would be cool to know what their nich is though. just my 2 cents. :mrgreen:

  • Rehabber · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 802 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Justin S.:
    Josh

    You could have a dual system. The current system is really a "contribution" system. The more you contribute the higher your points. Contributions are great because they drive site activity. You could then have the "expertise" system in which people vote on original blog and forum posts. For blogs you could have a check box which asks if the blog post is your own or a reproduction. I would also make the voting system blind.

    I, too, believe that you will need separate scoring systems in place. One system to keep track of participation and another for expertise.

    Both systems should support quality not quantity. Let's face it, quality is what we are after because junk postings only contribute to server load and slow down this site's performance. Also, quality is what drives membership and participation.

    Expertise:

    I believe it is extremely important to focus on quality of topics and posts. For this, perhaps Josh can establish two separate equations, one for original topic quality and another for response or post quality. One single vote is allowed per topic per member on each the quality of the original topic and quality of responses.

    Also, the higher the quality the original topic scored by members the more points the original poster will get, the best response posts overall points should be increased as well. Contrarily, the lower the quality of the post, the lower the points to the original topic poster and best response post.

    Forums should be weighted. The forums with the most activity should also be weighted differently in the valuation of points.

    Scoring system:

    Original topic valuation can be based on a rating system. Perhaps 1 to 5 or 1 to 10 or whichever is user friendly.

    Best post (response) should be based on a voting basis. Each member can vote once per topic and the top vote getter should be awarded the most points.

    You can also award more points to the top post responses on topic which score high on topic quality.

    Participation: Should also be a point system and anytime a member votes, posts, add files, blogs, etc. They should also receive participation points. Kind of like the influence scoring is done now. You can use a time factor, where points will be lost if the member's participation drops.

    I, for one, believe that members should feel that they can come here and post as little or as much as they want. I wish I could send more time on this site and post as frequently as others, but I can't so I try to focus on quality instead. However, quality of posts is the ugly red headed step- child of the current influence system.

    Josh, this site is great and if you do nothing to fix the current system, it will still be great in my opinion. But, I am very happy to see that you looking to improve, which, in the end, is why I expect this site to stay number 1!

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    Lots of great feedback thus far.

    In a perfect world, yes, but unfortunately, we do not live in one and the whole purpose of the creation of the current system was to drive participation (which I feel it accomplished, just look at the stats now compared to pre-point system).

    That said, I like the idea of two systems, activity (which the current system can be used for) and expertise in a field which can be added and several posters gave great feedback on such a system.

    Question to all who posted regarding this: Keeping votes hidden reather than exposed - both for positive or negative.
    Why do you feel it is better for them to be hidden? I believe that in seeing who voted for a post gives insight to the "vote traders" and makes it clear who liked the vote and perhaps why. If that particular voter is well known and voted on a post topic that is in their expertise, or a thread starter who may be a rookie and voted for a post who gave a great answer to their question, wouldn't both the voter want everyone else to know they appreciated the response and wouldn't the recipient of the vote want to know when his/her post was voted for/appreciated? I suppose either way, each has a downside, but my opinion is that I like to see who is voting for what, particularly if a negative vote system is implemented (which has been discussed several times in the past and thus far, Josh chose to avoid such an implementation.
    For negative, I believe any should be automated, such as when a poster is non-active for a week, a month, a quarter, etc., they should auto lose points.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    15y

    I feel making it blind will remove a lot of clique voting and make voting unemotional. I think some people are afraid to vote against popular posters or when poor advice is given. Making it blind removes any fear or retribution from it. You could also make it optional, a visible and anonymous vote.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    15y

    I guess I have always been a little bit of a rebel...

    Two words... Who cares...

    I can read... when I read enough posts from someone who has a correct answer I can file that person in my mental filing cabinet... I don’t need a website to tell me they are smart... Besides smart is relative..

    voting is too political and creates too many politically correct answers.

    Do the professional real estate investors really care about the number that is assigned? If so go buy some friggin houses instead of patting yourself on the back so much..

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