Installing a GFCI Outlet in Vanity in Bathroom... Ground Wire Issues....

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Installing a GFCI Outlet in Vanity in Bathroom... Ground Wire Issues....

Michael Miller
North Hollywood, CA · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes

Yesterday, I was trying to replace a very old 3 prong outlet near the vanity in my bathroom. For some reason, the Green Ground wire came all the way unattached from the inside of the wall. It appears to have some kind of connector on the end where it came lose from inside the wall... 1st Question:

Is the Green Ground wire absolutely necessary in the operation of the GFCI Outlet working properly, cause when I tried connecting the connector to another copper wire that had the same type of connector on it inside the wall, something sparked for some reason and shut off all the power in the east side of my apartment. For some reason that particular outlet near the vanity has it's own breaker in the breaker box... But for the rest of the area, the east side of the apartment (the bedroom) There's a separate breaker that shuts off EVERYTHING in the bedroom, including in the bathroom, except for the particular outlet that I'm working on........ Is the green ground wire necessary? Can someone please help me out in this situation... Cause this just has me completely confused, especially when that breaker for that outlet was shut off... I don't even understand how it could have sparked at all, shutting off a whole separate breaker, when that breaker was turned off, and shouldn't have had any type of current running through it, I would think...! ??? Any suggestions anyone???

Thanks,
Michael in North Hollywood, California, 91601

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Andrew O.
Real Estate Investor · San Clemente, CA · Member since 2011 · 209 posts · 47 votes
13y

As far as I am aware a GFCI does not require a ground, that's why they are retro fitted into houses without a ground wire. The GFCI looks for a difference in the amperage coming in through the active wire, and out through the neutral wire; the difference being the fault loss. I don't know what the code says, but that's the basic mechanics of it.

I would be more worried about assuming you have a solid ground, but in reality having faulty connections in the wall.

Andrew

Edit: You need to work on your formatting/sentence structure, I didn't bother reading through the first time, it made my head hurt.

Get yourself a licensed electrician, if it sparked you tried connecting a hot wire to a ground wire, never going to work, but a great way to start a fire or kill someone. I don't know the code where you are from, but I have never heard of a separate breaker box within the same building/tenancy.

Electricity and plumbing are really two trades you should know something about before playing with, seriously.

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  • Andrew O.
    Real Estate Investor · San Clemente, CA · Member since 2011 · 209 posts · 47 votes
    13y

    As far as I am aware a GFCI does not require a ground, that's why they are retro fitted into houses without a ground wire. The GFCI looks for a difference in the amperage coming in through the active wire, and out through the neutral wire; the difference being the fault loss. I don't know what the code says, but that's the basic mechanics of it.

    I would be more worried about assuming you have a solid ground, but in reality having faulty connections in the wall.

    Andrew

    Edit: You need to work on your formatting/sentence structure, I didn't bother reading through the first time, it made my head hurt.

    Get yourself a licensed electrician, if it sparked you tried connecting a hot wire to a ground wire, never going to work, but a great way to start a fire or kill someone. I don't know the code where you are from, but I have never heard of a separate breaker box within the same building/tenancy.

    Electricity and plumbing are really two trades you should know something about before playing with, seriously.

    1Reply
  • Michael Miller
    OP
    North Hollywood, CA · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    Thanks Andrew... So when you say " fault loss", you mean like not receiving as much current through the outlet as you would with the ground wire?

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  • Andrew O.
    Real Estate Investor · San Clemente, CA · Member since 2011 · 209 posts · 47 votes
    13y

    Fault loss means the electricity is going somewhere else, not down the neutral wire. For example through your body onto the metal faucet you are touching...fortunately 110v will give you a wake up call, 230v is not so pleasant.

    Get it looked at by someone who knows!

    Andrew

    1Reply
  • Michael Miller
    OP
    North Hollywood, CA · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    And, if that outlet was off, which Im sure of it because I made sure, then how could anything spark at all inside where that outlet should be off. i plugged in a nightlight to make sure that the outlet had no current running through it...

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  • Michael Miller
    OP
    North Hollywood, CA · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    LOL, no really funny, but I get you.....! Thanks Andrew

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  • Andrew O.
    Real Estate Investor · San Clemente, CA · Member since 2011 · 209 posts · 47 votes
    13y

    Generally GFCI's will have their own circuit, hence their own circuit breaker. GFCI's are convenient because they have a faster trip time and are more sensitive than circuit breakers, they will cut the power to themselves in the event of a fault, not the entire circuit.

    So, you had a tripped GFCI, however the circuit was still live, so all the active wires in the wall had 110v present, touch a ground and the amps start flowing, the fault tripped the breaker and all the power went out. It sounds though like you tried to connect the ground to the active of a light circuit, unless the main breaker tripped first. Have you got more detail?

    Andrew

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  • Michael Miller
    OP
    North Hollywood, CA · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    Well, there's a separate breaker for that particular outlet out of all the breakers in the apartment... Which I find completely weird...

    Cause when I was trying to figure out which breaker would shut off the power for that area, another breaker shut off everything in the room. EVERYTHING, including the bathroom, except...

    It didnt shut off that outlet above the vanity... It had it's own separate breaker which i would have not know if i didn't plug in that night light just to make sure that the outlet was off...

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  • Andrew O.
    Real Estate Investor · San Clemente, CA · Member since 2011 · 209 posts · 47 votes
    13y

    If that's the only GFCI outlet, then that seems normal. But did you say there are two separate breaker boxes in different areas? If so you may have some code issues. You really do need an electrician there to determine the problem, don't risk it.

    Andrew

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  • Phillip Cailey
    Coffeen , IL · Member since 2012 · 43 posts · 7 votes
    13y

    Its also possible your breaker could have a GFCI Built into it. I have seen and installed them before.This could be a reason for a separate breaker, or it could just be part of the electrical code for your area, as mentioned above. Those types of breakers are expensive though. If this is the case you will not need a separate GFCI outlet. Just a thought.

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  • Jon Holdman
    Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    13y

    Hence why you MUST get an electrician to have a look. You are literally playing with fire. Sparks mean shorts. You have a wire involved here that's coming from somewhere and its still hot. Who knows where. None of us will figure it out because we can't see what's going on.

    1Reply
  • Rob K.
    Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    I've seen this situation before. The ground wire is probably connected to a cold water pipe inside the wall and came loose. If there is a sink with a vanity, you might be able to see inside the wall where the drain is or you might need to cut part of the wall away inside the vanity where it won't be conspicuous.

    You might need to fish a new ground from the box to a cold water line. Sometimes, you can remove the medicine cabinet which will give you a lot more access behind the wall.

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  • Ben Skove
    Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    Grounding to metal pipe can be problematic if there's a chance that the metal pipe is no longer continuous to earth ground - e.g. there's a PVC repair somewhere along the way. My understanding is that all grounds now have to run back to the main box to be code.

    If you do clamp to a pipe, at the least use an outlet tester to ensure you've got ground and correct polarity. However, given that your knowledge is still at a beginning level, go with the consensus advice: let an electrician handle it.

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