Making it work - owner occupied multifamily residence in high cost area

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Making it work - owner occupied multifamily residence in high cost area

Norm M.
New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 1 vote

Hi everyone,

I only discovered biggerpockets yesterday and I've already learned so much! Wanted to bounce some ideas off of the pros here...

I'm a soon to be high income earner (stable, high demand job) who is looking to start out in the westchester NY area (location forced by employment) - I was looking for housing for my young family, but realized that the high cost nature (both housing as well as property taxes) of westchester will make housing a financial sink hole. I eventually discovered MFR's and found some that are priced reasonably (in the range of SFRs that I've been looking at) - these are by no means comparable to the investments you guys put up here (doesnt even come close to meeting the 2% rule). Also - although I am fairly financial saavy (with equities etc), I am a total newbie to the RE market - have been a renter my entire life.

here are some questions for you guys:

1) assuming i will stay in one of the units, I should be able to finance it using the standard ridiculously low mortgage rates, correct?

2) should I purchase this in an LLC for liability issues? i would hate to get sued because someone slipped on ice in front of my building (although i know there are landlord insurances). For financing reasons, would it be easiest for me to buy it under my name, then deed it to a LLC?

3) being in westchester, its impossible to make the 2% guideline work - its more like .92% with some conservative estimates (i think - ie: 2.2% of MFR price in maint&repairs) the rest of the stats are: price/rent ratio: 9%, gross rent yield = 11%, cap rate ~5% - the numbers aren't great - but im just looking for a way to have my 'housing' cost work for me.

4) As with most housing stock in NY, it is an old building - built in 1924 - how much should I be aloting to maintenance? How much for insurance? should I be running away?

5) Since I have no experience with RE, much less landlording - i was wondering if it was worth hiring a PM for a small apartment complex such as this (who will effectively be managing 3 units if i live in one of them) and as far as i know, all of them are occupied currently. If I was to hire a PM, does my role as landlord basically become simply an investor?

6) for what its worth, my income would allow me to comfortably afford the mortgage payments even assuming i collect 0 rent. which should help with financing, and I have enough capital to put down 20%. My plan would be to move out within 1-2 years once my kid grows up and starts school. (apt is in a safe area, but not great schools - its about .5 miles from a commuter trainstation into NYC and walkable to a nice downtown area though), after 1-2 years I anticipate i would need to find somewhere nicer to live (or my wife would kill me).

FWIW, i expect life to be pretty busy the next year or two - with a newborn, a new job, and the requirement to pass some certification exams. - will having a PM be able to defray enough of the time to make this workable? or should I just buy a regular SFR or rent (2k for 2br!!) for a few years until life allows me to landlord?

Thanks for any insights or suggestions.

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Jeff Bridges
Investor · Hyattsville, MD · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 441 votes
13y

1) You should be fine with a normal mortgage in a 1-4 unit building using owner occupied loan rates.
2) You cant use owner occupied loan products with LLCs at closing. If you buy with LLC as owner, you'll need commercial financing which has higher fees and interest rates. Many are comfortable buying under their own name, using standard financing, and buying umbrella policy on top of regular hazard insurance to the tune of 1-2 million. there are other threads here which discuss the liability concerns of LLC vs. personal ownership. too lengthy to debate here but do your own comparison.
3) You can think of it as subsidizing your housing cost when you have 3 units rented and you are in the 4th one. do some calculations/ analysis and see what your cashflow is like is with rental income of three units with the expenses of 4 units. compare this to what it would be if you just rented a place. Is that difference worth the headache of 3 tenants, unexpected maintenance costs, and administration/ paperwork of rental investment property?
4) I'm not as knowledgeable with older buildings but assume that a good inspector will tell you the age of systems (i.e. roof, boiler, AC) and tell you what needs to be replaced. If you do alot of this rehab before you move in such as replace the roof, and all systems to modern standards, there will be less repair headaches/ costs later on. If you delay repairs or wait to replace a 15 year XXXX with a 20 year lifespan, then account for that possible future replacement in your repair costs... You can call any insurance carrier and get a quote on your exact property with the options you prefer. You'll find out if the property is insurable to begin with (has no major prior claims) and what that cost will be.... do that with at least one to get a ballpark...
5)PM charges 6-10% of your rent rolls. Can you afford to take 10% less each month from your rent and still be happy with your housing expenses vs. renting? You'll be living next door to all of your tenants and can walk by once a month to collect rent. The PM can help with tenant placement/ evictions and other things like maintenance but again, you'll likely become involved anyway since your home is connected to these.
brandon turner put out a great how-to article recently on how to do this yourself without the help of a PM. (you can do it)
http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2013/01/04/how-to-rent-your-house/
6) weigh it all out. calculate costs of rent vs. expenses with 3 units rented and living in one unit. then check the cashflow with 4 units rented vs. expenses once you want to move out. then check if you can add on a PM once you move-out to minimize costs. do you break-even for either of these situations? If it cashflows, how much? Would a roof repair or a single system malfunction and replacement put you in serious negative territory? as for property management, many believe if you are living in the property and your commute time is zero, then your time spent dealing with tenants wont be such a hassle assuming you screened your tenants properly and have a good system. Its also good learning experience on how to handle property management when you are ready to hand it over to a property manager.

other relevant articles:
http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2012/09/04/why-i-have-to-use-property-managers/

http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2012/11/13/managing-property-repairs-keeping-molehills-from-turning-into-mountains/

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  • Brian H.
    Real Estate Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2012 · 39 posts · 9 votes
    13y

    Do you absolutely have to live in Westchester? My employer is headquartered there and I know most of my coworkers who work at the HQ actually reside in some of the nearby communities that aren't so pricey, mostly on the Connecticut side. Have you considered Danbury or Bridgeport? I don't know much about the rental market in those towns but I know the inventory is higher and less expensive.

    1Reply
  • Norm M.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    Its not written in stone, but I work close to the hudson river, making cross westchester commuting difficult if i lived in Ct. I also need to be at work no matter what when Im supposed to work - even through blizzards. So closer will reduce the risk of time variablility.

    the apartment is in white plains, which has much lower taxes than everywhere else in westchester due to the commercial base.. thats the only thing that makes this project even financially viable.

    0Reply
  • Jeff Bridges
    Investor · Hyattsville, MD · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 441 votes
    13y

    1) You should be fine with a normal mortgage in a 1-4 unit building using owner occupied loan rates.
    2) You cant use owner occupied loan products with LLCs at closing. If you buy with LLC as owner, you'll need commercial financing which has higher fees and interest rates. Many are comfortable buying under their own name, using standard financing, and buying umbrella policy on top of regular hazard insurance to the tune of 1-2 million. there are other threads here which discuss the liability concerns of LLC vs. personal ownership. too lengthy to debate here but do your own comparison.
    3) You can think of it as subsidizing your housing cost when you have 3 units rented and you are in the 4th one. do some calculations/ analysis and see what your cashflow is like is with rental income of three units with the expenses of 4 units. compare this to what it would be if you just rented a place. Is that difference worth the headache of 3 tenants, unexpected maintenance costs, and administration/ paperwork of rental investment property?
    4) I'm not as knowledgeable with older buildings but assume that a good inspector will tell you the age of systems (i.e. roof, boiler, AC) and tell you what needs to be replaced. If you do alot of this rehab before you move in such as replace the roof, and all systems to modern standards, there will be less repair headaches/ costs later on. If you delay repairs or wait to replace a 15 year XXXX with a 20 year lifespan, then account for that possible future replacement in your repair costs... You can call any insurance carrier and get a quote on your exact property with the options you prefer. You'll find out if the property is insurable to begin with (has no major prior claims) and what that cost will be.... do that with at least one to get a ballpark...
    5)PM charges 6-10% of your rent rolls. Can you afford to take 10% less each month from your rent and still be happy with your housing expenses vs. renting? You'll be living next door to all of your tenants and can walk by once a month to collect rent. The PM can help with tenant placement/ evictions and other things like maintenance but again, you'll likely become involved anyway since your home is connected to these.
    brandon turner put out a great how-to article recently on how to do this yourself without the help of a PM. (you can do it)
    http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2013/01/04/how-to-rent-your-house/
    6) weigh it all out. calculate costs of rent vs. expenses with 3 units rented and living in one unit. then check the cashflow with 4 units rented vs. expenses once you want to move out. then check if you can add on a PM once you move-out to minimize costs. do you break-even for either of these situations? If it cashflows, how much? Would a roof repair or a single system malfunction and replacement put you in serious negative territory? as for property management, many believe if you are living in the property and your commute time is zero, then your time spent dealing with tenants wont be such a hassle assuming you screened your tenants properly and have a good system. Its also good learning experience on how to handle property management when you are ready to hand it over to a property manager.

    other relevant articles:
    http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2012/09/04/why-i-have-to-use-property-managers/

    http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2012/11/13/managing-property-repairs-keeping-molehills-from-turning-into-mountains/

    2Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Norm,

    First of all, if you live ion one of the units, you are correct about being able to finance this on a 30-year note. However, of you put this building into an LLC at the time of purchase, you won't be able to get residential financing. If you buy in your own name and then go and deed it to the LLC, you might trigger the Due on Sale clause. Some people say do it anyway; as long as you are making payments the bank won't even think to check. This is not my recommendation. If you do this, you should clear it with the note holder and if they say no …Hopefully this answers the first two questions.

    Now, while you are exactly right to consider a small MFR in lieu of SFR, am not sure this is the right deal. In terms of CF you would be breaking even at best. So, as an investment for today this makes no sense. Although, if all you are trying to do is subsidize the cost of living which you would have regardless, this makes a little sense. But, since the building is old, and since you will not really be cash flowing substantially, you will need to dip into your pocket for maintenance.

    Furthermore, if you will be earning over $150,000/year, then the effect of paper losses will be very muted for you – talk to your CPA. Not to mention that the landlord / tenant laws in your arena are quite strict on the landlord – make sure you study and speak to an Attorney.

    I am an investor, and as such it is strange for me that you would dip into your pocket to cover expenses. This is supposed to make you money! I would agree with the other comments – perhaps you can look in another location; one more conducive to creating positive CF. Hope this helps

    1Reply
  • Norm M.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    Regarding LLC - yea, i just read several threads on here about it - seems like banks are cracking down. I'll have to look into the magnitude of insurance costs to see if it makes it prohibitive.

    My reasoning for looking at MHR, is simply as a subsidy for housing. I find it unpalatable to spend 2k+ renting or buying SFR for 600k and paying 15-20k for property/school taxes. I may have to do this eventually.. but i might as well pay the school taxes when I actually need it (ie: when junior hits kindergarden). Instead of renting, I was hoping to put that $$ into equity (a revenue generating property is even better). Currently my capital is invested in the bond/equity market - its a pretty conservative portfolio, generating about 5% in dividends/year. (with the Fed hinting that interest rates may go up, bond prices will probably fall... so i'll need to exit sooner than later)

    Without any knowledge of operating an apartment, its difficult for me to estimate expenses. For example, I thought I was conservative putting 13k in repairs/ year (is it? i have no idea) - the differnce between 8k/year and 20k/yr in annual repairs makes a huge difference.. and i dont know even what the magnitude of repairs is.. is a new roof 20k? 60k? 100k? new electrical system 20k? 50k? I think my current assumptions are pretty conservative, and If I can't find evidence that some of the major maintenance stuff has been done recently, I probably won't bite. Also, the metrics in my original post was assuming 5% at 30 years, if im able to get 3.5%, that will be even better.

    If I move in, I assume I'll take one of the 2br or 3brs with myself 'paying' market rent. If I remove my contribution to the rent, it is not CF positive, mainly because the 2br or 3br are among the bigger units accounting for about 30% of the total monthly rent. Assuming I can get 3.5% for 30 yrs, 20% down, my rent contribution, 13k/yr in maint, 1k for admin/advertising, 10% rent roll for PM, 7% vacancy, im yielding 3.75% CoC and 9.5% on total ROI, throwing off >100/unit CF. Not great numbers, but I'm thinking enough to justify trying this vs. renting or just going the simple route of buying a SFR. Anything else - ie: if maint doesnt take as much (ie: if its already been done), or I do my own PM - is a huge bonus.

    True this is not a huge CF generating machine - but its not bad for relative to my alternatives (renting / buying SFR) - the biggest risk (which will sink or make me fly) is the condition of the building and the expected maintenance/repairs - hopefully I'll be able to get a knowledgeable inspector with me to assess things thoroughly.

    @Ben, what do you mean my paper losses will be muted?

    0Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Norm,

    Everything you are saying makes sense. But, as someone wise said – you don’t know what you don’t know. My friend, I believe you will likely loose money and sleep over this. Look for better spreads. In this one, the property taxes are likely what’s killing you.

    Some losses are actual losses, things that cost you money – new roof, carpet, tires on the car, etc. However, other things look like losses on the tax filing, but they are not actual losses to you. Two of the big ones in RE are interest write-off and depreciation. If you borrow $250,000 @ 5%, you will pay close to $12,500 worth of interest in the first year. Now, it is an actual expense to you, but since it is figured into your cash flow calculus it becomes ordinary cost of doing business. IRS understands this and allows you to deduct this expense as cost of business. It would be nice if they would allow us to credit it, but alas…

    Depreciation is a value that we can deduct due to a diminishing life-span of the structure, usually 27.5 years for residential (no land can be included). Thus, if you pay $400,000 for the building, of which the land is valued $125,000 leaving $275,000 for the building, you will be able to show a loss of $10,000/year if utilizing straight-line depreciation method. Both are what we refer to as passive losses, or paper losses.

    Thus, these 2 items combined would provide you with a shelter of $22,500 in the first year. Ordinarily, this shields your RE income with which the losses are associated. However, in some cases you may be able to use those losses to shield other income. BUT, I believe that the cut-off is $150,000 earned income, which it sounds like you’ll be over.

    Some people buy property solely for the losses. They don’t care about the CF and just want the tax shelters. I do not recommend that because if you do it right you can have both. Hopefully this gives you a bit of a bird’s eye view, but I am not a CPA. TALK TO YOUR CPA AND ATTORNEY!!! And incidentally, don’t even think of buying until, or I should say unless you have established a relationship with those professionals. Hope this helps,

    1Reply
  • Norm M.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    Thanks for your insightful post @ben. The depreciation benefits makes sense, and I'll be well above the income limit, however, it seems i would still be able to benefit by having the depreciation accumulate until my income levels drop in the future.

    The property is in white plains, where the taxes are very reasonable ( ~1.2% of property, vs >2% in other parts). This wouldn't work anywhere else in westchester.

    Also, assuming there aren't very many other suitable opportunities out there with my location requirements - would you recommend that I just proceed with my original plan of renting or buying a SFR, saving and keeping an eye out for other opportunities (which will likely never be in westchester, unless i go into less desirable places) - spending ~24k in rent or 15-20k in property taxes (for a house in a nicer area with a good school district) - that could be put into equity of a revenue generating apartment - FWIW - those houses I would buy are priced in the range of this apt complex, which puts off CF and has lower taxes. (which, possibly incorrectly -is why i'm so smitten by this idea)

    I do appreciate your caution, and I want to go into this with my eyes wide open. I'm still at the very early stages - i havent even looked at the place yet. But any knowledge I gain through this experience (even if i end up not going through with it) would only help me in the future.. and for that, I thank you and BP!

    0Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Norm,

    You seem very intelligent. Be cautious and conservative in your estimates as you move ahead. Please make sure that the utilities are separately metered. In older buildings we commonly see radiant water heat on a single boiler, which costs the landlord a pretty penny and is tricky and somewhat costly to convert. Try to stay away from flat roofs, etc.

    I’ll be happy to try to answer any other questions you come across. Good luck Norm,

    0Reply
  • Norm M.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    Yes, I'm trying to be as conservative as I can since I am so new (and i realize that I don't know what I don't know, as you put it above). Hoping to fill some of those knowledge gaps through BP.. although I recognize issues will pop up due to inexperience. Hopefully I can learn the ropes through this process that will help serve me in investing in more distant properties in the future. (any investors in westchester/ny metro looking for a quick learning mentee?? :) )

    I may contact a broker just to check out the property - and perhaps involve a inspector as well since I have absolutely no experience in that regard.

    I checked out an article on MFR due diligence on BP which was very helpful - but would you mind expanding on some thigns to watch out for and the reasoning? (ie: separately metered utilities makes sense, but you mentioned the radiant water heatr on a single boiler, and flat roofs, anything else to look out for and why?)

    Thanks!

    oh and btw - i sent my analysis to my father - whose a CPA - hopefully he can run the figures and see whats up - although he has no landlording experience, im pretty sure he has a couple of clients who are and hopefully can help me ballpark some figures based on their figures

    0Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Oh man – watch out for everything. Foundation – if it’s bad nothing else will matter. Flat roofs – nothing rolls off of them so they don’t last as long and take effort to up-keep. Tile on the wall in bathroom – you can pretty well guarantee water got into the wall. Old claw tubs – heavy as all get-up to move if need be. Electrical – you can update the service but what about what’s in the walls ($$$$). Plumbing – don’t even want to go there.

    Just ask yourself: how costly will it be to repair this when it breaks, cause it will break.

    I really suggest you look at a lot of buildings to get a sense. Have fun Norm!

    0Reply
  • Jeff Bridges
    Investor · Hyattsville, MD · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 441 votes
    13y

    Definitely feel free to call a broker (buyers agent of your choice, not the listing agent) and have them show you the place first hand. There is no risk or cost to doing this and you could easily rule out the theoretical discussions in this thread if you find out there is a massive sinkhole in the basement or something obvious that would rule it out as a viable sale for you. They can help point out obvious defects and things that might need updating, but ultimately you'll need to pay a house inspector to do a full inspection to get a handle on what repairs are needed (when the roof will need replacement etc). Some are ex-contractors and can give you ballpark estimates for repair costs for the defects they discover. Finally, don't hire an inspector until you have the property under contract and have the sale contingent on a full house inspection for your protection. This way you dont waste your money on inspection fees if a) you cant get an offer accepted in the first place or b) another buyer bids on it before you and your inspection fees are for nothing. Experienced investors here will sometimes be able to bring over a trusted contractor to estimate repair costs before making an offer, but this resource might not be available to you if you dont have a friend with this experience for example.

    Again, 13k might be acceptable for estimating maintenance, but it might be less if you do proactive rehab before moving in. Only you will be able to find out if the HVAC is on the 19th year of its 20 year lifespan and same with the roof and choose to delay that replacement. your inspector would be the best guy to see what lies ahead of you in terms of anticipated costs for "delayed maintenance" instead of unanticipated maintenance costs.

    0Reply
  • Norm M.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    @ben - you mentioned something about looking for a better spread - when you say spread, are you talking about positive cash flow? - what kind of spread do you think is 1)great and 2) passable?

    how much in terms of ongoing maintenance would I expect in terms of a quadplex apartment building vs. 3 unit house assuming similar age/condition? is replacing a roof of a house similar to replacing an apartment building? (or are there too many variables to make a general statement?)

    0Reply
  • Tim Czarkowski
    Involved In Real Estate · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2012 · 217 posts · 42 votes
    13y

    Norm M. I made a decision similar to yours a couple years back. I bought a home 3/2 2000 sq ft home that also has three 1/1 apartments, two in the basement and one on the side. I think it was a great deal as my entire mortgage payment is made on a much nicer home than I would have ever bought.

    However the big difference I see is that you plan to move out after a year or two. This place is nice enough that I plan to stay for a decade or two. I understand your need for a good school system but down here it's has to be private school anywhere as far as I am concerned. If I did not plan to live here for so long I would not have bought this place. I get much better returns on my other rentals but I wouldn't live in any of them. If I was moved out and rented the main home I would cash flow but not like I should.

    I recommend that if you do go forward that you at least manage it for a little while. You get experience and being that it sounds like a good area you might find that it's no big deal. My tenants bring my rent to my door at the beginning of the month and that's about all the contact I have with them for the most part.

    All in all I love the setup, I have no mortgage and have only utilities to pay. Which gives me peace of mind, freedom, and the ability to save large portions of my income.

    0Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Norm,

    Yes, ultimately the chief factor in my decision-making process is cash flow – money in the pocket at the end of the day. Now, there are a number of metrics aside for CF that we use when analyzing property. Here are a few:

    Cash on Cash is basically going to tell you how fast you are recovering your cash investment. Thus, COC = CF / Out of Pocket Investment. If you want to be very sophisticated, then you could add to the CF your realized tax savings. So, if you put $50,000 down, while your CF is $500/mo ($6,000), the COC would be 12%. I specialize in 100% (or as close to it as possible), so my COC is typically outrageous. But in general, a minimum of 25% is what we like to see, meaning that it takes 4 years to get the invested capital back.

    CAP Rate (capitalization rate) is a juxtaposition of the Annual NOI (net operating income, which is income less all expenses excluding cost of money) to the total investment. Thus: CAP Rate = NOI / (Purchase Price + Closing Costs + Up-front repair costs). I do not do any deals in today's market under a 10 CAP. I am in Ohio. In NY, Seattle, or Chicago you likely could not touch a 10 CAP even today. I would think that 5 or 6 would be good there. I want you to talk to a commercial lender or appraiser. Ask them what the going CAP rate for a building such as the one you are looking at in that particular location is.

    DSCR (debt service coverage ration) is juxtaposition of NOI to cost of money. Thus, DSCR = NOI / sum of all mortgages. Banks typically want to see 1.2 ratio at a minimum. I like 1.3 – 1.4 minimum, which results in healthier CF.

    There are others, but you’ll be fine to start with these. All of these are a bit screwy in your case since you are going to loose 1 of the rents due to moving-in. However, if you plug-in a market rate rent, these will tell the story about the health of your investment.

    The cost of roof and siding are measured as price per square (10ft. by 10ft.) Talk to 5 or 10 contractors to get a sense of cost. Since a 4-plex is typically a two-story, the surface area is a bit less than a 3-plex, which is often an L-shaped sprauled out structure.

    I have some ideas for you in terms of how I’d structure this your deal to gain the most out of it – too long for this post. Feel free to grab hold of me either by phone or email. Hope this helps.

    0Reply
  • Norm M.
    OP
    New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    Wow, 25% CoC... that is ridiculous.. i think in a market like NY, it would be very difficult to reach 25% CoC, simply based on purchase prices (ie: more money floating around here, and I feel the NY metro market hasn't been hit as hard as the rest of the nation, thus less opportunities for home runs)

    There is another property I found with the following metrics (based on conservative rent ~90% of market) - assuming putting ~7% into improvements up front, 25% down payment - CoC 5.3%, total ROI 9.3%, Income/Debt: 1.4, Cap=5.5%, Alittle better than the other one. With the expectations of market rate the metrics come out to: CoC 10.38%, totl ROI 14.41, Income/debt: 1.8, Cap 7%

    Going to check out both properties this weekend. Will update with whether I bite afterwards

    Also - I checked with a lender - for 3 unit MFRs, there is a fairly significant bump in interest rate - was quoted 3.75% up from 3.375% for a SFR... for whatever reason, I assumed anything under 5 units would get the same 3.375%.

    0Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    Norm,

    Go look at them and let us know your thoughts. Be detailed...

    0Reply
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