Aussie looking to invest in the US

Aussie looking to invest in the US

Real Estate Investor · Sydney · Member since 2010 · 11 posts · 0 votes

Hi - Thanks in advanced for reading this post and for any advice you can provide me.

I'm an Aussie looking to invest in the US real estate market. My fiancee is actually from the US (dallas) so I figured that it should assist me in overcoming any foreign ownership issues.

I'm just starting out and have been fortunate enough to come across this site. There're so much information and so many real estate strategies out there it's mind boggling!

I feel that the GFC (and subsequent decline of property values) provides a once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire good quality assets.

I'm not looking for a quick profit (although if the opportunity presents itself, i wouldn't turn it down :p). Rather, I'm in this for the long haul.

My intention is to steadily build a portfolio of quality properties with the objective of achieving the following:
1. good ongoing yield/cashflow - my initial goal is to be able to generate $20k a month in rental income. So I'm looking to buy
in areas where there is strong rental demand.
2. capital gains in the next 3-5 years when the property market recovers and values increase to pre-GFC values. So I'm really looking for undervalued properties here.

My issues are that i'm not too sure where to start and where to look as the US is so BIG! At a high level, all I know that is
that the areas that are most affected by the GFC is california, arizona, nevada and florida. Should i focus my attention on
these areas?

In addition, I'm not familiar with the US tax system, ideal property structures/vehicles or acquisition cost/ongoing maintenance cost in the US. Basically, I have a whole host of questions circling in my head!

If you have any advice on providing me with some direction on where to start, it would be greatly appreciated!

Apologies for the general nature of this message and thanks once again for reading.

Mike

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Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
16y

If your finance is from Dallas, you should invest there. No question. Its a decent market from what people here say, and you already have a reason to be there.

Gross rents don't really matter for the $100. What! you way. How can that be? In most markets, there is only a narrow range where properties work. Keep in mind the implications of the "50% rule". Since you're going to be long distance and paying a property manager, and paying a handyman $50-100 to make a repair that would take an hour of your time and cost $5 in parts, you'll certainly hit this 50% rule. That rule tells you:

cash flow = (rent / 2) - P&I payment.

I'm assuming you will be financing the property. Not quite sure how you'll pull that off, and I'll come back to the all cash alternative in a minute.

Also, for the moment, lets assume you can get 100% financing. The $100 number really makes that assumption, too. Its possible to achieve that with various creative strategies, but I suspect you're not going to be using those since you're not on the ground here. Nevertheless, lets start with that and see what it takes to get $100 in cash flow from the property. Then we will add in a 30% down payment and a 100% down payment (all cash) and see how that improves the cash flow. Realize thought that the improvement is from the cash you've sunk into the deal. The first number, assuming 100% financing, give you a better handle on the property itself.

Now, rents are the factor you have the least control over. Those are set by the market. Not sure of rents in Dallas, but I suspect they're not too different from here. Lets pick three rents and go with those. $500 for a cheap 1BR apartment. $1000 for a 3/2. $1500 for an upscale house.

Lets take the formula from above and do a little algebra:

cash flow = (rent / 2) - P&I payment

cash flow = (rent / 2) - PMT (rate, term, loan)

Remember loan is 100% of the purchase price for this case. Lets assume we want $100 in cash flow, and solve for the loan (price). PMT is the payment calculation function from a financial calculator or Excel. PV is present value, which computes the loan amount from a payment.

max payment = (rent/2) - desired cash flow

max price = PV (rate, term, max payment)
max price = PV (rate, term, (rent/2)-desired cash flow)

I'll assume 6% and 30 years for the loan, since that's the current rates for NOO loans. Again, no idea how you're even going to get a loan, let alone the terms. I'll also use $100 for desired cash flow and the three rents from above.

Rent $500 -> max price of $25,019
Rent $1000 -> max price of $66,717
Rent $1500 -> max price of $108,415

Now, in some places you can buy a small house or an apartment for about $25K. That would include any fixup the place needs to make it rent ready. It should also include your closing costs. Here in Denver, essentially impossible. In Dallas or surrounding areas? Perhaps.

Its difficult, but more feasible to be into a 3/2 for $67K. Not everywhere, but there are areas where, with a lot of work, you could come very close. I'm confident you can do this in Dallas, though it will still take work.

To get $1500 in rent, you have to have a really nice place. I have a friend at my day job who moved here from MN a couple of years ago. His wife only wants to live in one specific neighborhood. He wants a good deal. So they've still not bought. Houses in that neighborhood are about $400K. He rents one of them for $1400. That's a LOOONG way from the $108K you can afford to pay for a place that will rent for $1500. Now there are other areas here where you can get a lot closer. But its actually more challenging to find that than to find the house that rents for $1000. And you're still getting only the $100 in cash flow.

If you're buying $200K houses in "nice neighborhoods", its really tough to even get the $100. You need about $2600 in rent to coax $100 out of a $200K house, and that's impossible in most areas. Certainly impossible here in Denver.

This set of calculations tells you what you need to be looking for.

Now, what happens if you kick in 30% down, or pay cash for those same deals? Your P&I payment goes down and cash flow goes up. Now you have cash into the deal, so a "cash on cash" return becomes meaningful. To make the calculations simpler, I'll assume the values computed above include rehab and acquisition closing costs.

Rent $500 -> max price of $25,019
30% down payment -> cash flow = $145, cash on cash return = 23%
all cash -> cash flow = $250, cash on cash return = 12%
Rent $1000 -> max price of $66,717
30% down payment -> cash flow = $220, cash on cash return = 13%
all cash -> cash flow = $500, cash on cash return = 9%
Rent $1500 -> max price of $108,415
30% down payment -> cash flow = $295, cash on cash return = 11%
all cash -> cash flow = $750, cash on cash return = 8%

With that 100% loan, your cash on cash return is infinite, since you have no cash in the deal. When you pump a lot of cash into the deal, your cash on cash goes down. Then, you have to consider other investments. You can certainly do much better than 8% return by making hard money loans.

Lets use these numbers to get you to your $20K goal:

Rent $500 -> max price of $25,019
30% down, cash flow $145, doors needed 138, cash needed, $1.03 million
all cash, cash flow $250, doors needed 80, cash needed, $2.00 million
Rent $1000 -> max price of $66,717
30% down, cash flow $220, doors needed 91, cash needed, $1.82 million
all cash, cash flow $500, doors needed 80, cash needed, $2.67 million
Rent $1500 -> max price of $108,415
30% down, cash flow $295, doors needed 68, cash needed, $2.21 million
all cash, cash flow $750, doors needed 27, cash needed, $2.93 million

Pick your poison.

See this reply in the discussion

15 Replies

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  • Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Michael, welcome to BP. You've come to the right place to learn about investing in the US.

    There are a number of people that can offer suggestions about where to invest. Richard Warren posted a bulletin you may want to check out.

    http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/7-cities-with-great-real-estate-deals

  • Real Estate Investor · Sydney · Member since 2010 · 11 posts · 0 votes
    16y

    Thanks for the tip Charles - will check out the url you provided!

  • Rental Property Investor · Southfield, MI · Member since 2010 · 111 posts · 20 votes
    16y

    HI Michael, welcome to BP! I'm also from overseas (the UK) and I've found that the States offers excellent opportunities for international real estate investors.

    One thing to bear in mind here is that property taxes and insurance is paid by the landlord. So it is prudent to budget for up to 50% of rental income to be allocated to property expenses.

  • Real Estate Investor · Sydney · Member since 2010 · 11 posts · 0 votes
    16y

    hey Karim - thanks for your advice. 50% of gross rental income seems pretty high!

    Do you know which states provide favourable property taxes?

  • Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    Here is a link you might want to check out. This gives you an idea of property tax and other taxes by state.

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/PropertyTaxesWhereDoesYourStateRank.aspx

  • Rental Property Investor · Southfield, MI · Member since 2010 · 111 posts · 20 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Michael Pang:
    hey Karim - thanks for your advice. 50% of gross rental income seems pretty high!

    Do you know which states provide favourable property taxes?





    Michael - Yes the 50% calculation seems pretty high compared to the countries we're from. But then again the rental yields are so much higher! Generally speaking, I achieve a net rental yield of 20% - 25% (after all expenses) in my targeted locations.

    Charles - thanks for sharing the link. Very useful. I'm glad to see overall Michigan taxes aren't as high as I thought!


  • Real Estate Investor · Sydney · Member since 2010 · 11 posts · 0 votes
    16y

    Charles/Karim - many thanks for your information & advice - it's much appreciated!

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    16y

    That 50% factor includes a lot of stuff. Read in the Rental Property forum. There are sticky threads that cover what all is included. If you manage the properties yourself, you can earn a chunk of that 50% for yourself. That doesn't change the quality of the property, but does put more money in your pocket. Unfortunately, from a distance, you really don't have that option.

    Earning $20K a month in gross rents is a challenging, but do-able goal. That's as few as 10 units in some locations. Unfortunately, those high-rent locations tend not to produce good returns. You'll get better returns with lower valued, lower rent units. So, you'd be looking at 20 $1000 rent houses or 40 $500 rent houses/apartments.

    Now, if you mean your cash flow (rent - expenses - debt service) goal is $20K a month, you have a HUGE challenge. $100 per unit per month in true cash flow is not easy to achieve. That's 200 units!

    Your single biggest challenge will be financing. Paying cash would greatly increase your cash flow and reduce the number of units you need, but doesn't tend to produce the best return on investment. If you have that big a wad of cash, you can probably make a better ROI by doing hard money loans.

    If you really want to buy that many units, you're going to have to be geographically diversified. Pick a set of cities and go to it. I'd say your best best include Ohio, Indiana, Texas, MO, and Memphis. Maybe Vegas and Arizona. You're going to have to buy stuff in each multiple locations, so just pick some and start hunting deals. There's no one place where great deals are easily available. Every location has deals, and its always a lot of work to find them. Anyone who offers to help you make it easy is, at best, making a buck from you (i.e., reducing your return in exchange for making it easy). At worst, you're flat out being cheated. There are LOTS of cheats in this business and even more just bad deals sold by people who either know they're bad deals and have made that their business model (nearly any deal where you just put in the money and the seller does all the work) or really do think they're good deals but just don't have a clue about the reality of investing (retail deals, any deal where the seller or broker says "cash flow = rent - PITI".)

    I've never heard the acronym GFC. I take it that refers to the foreclosure crisis. You have a very fundamental misunderstand. You seem to think the fall in prices is the unusual event and that in a few year we will be back to the pre-crash prices: "capital gains in the next 3-5 years when the property market recovers and values increase to pre-GFC values". Your misunderstand is you think the crash is the unusual part of this, and that we will recover from that. Wrong. The boom was the unusal past, and the crash IS the recovery. Long term Case-Shiller data shows the ONLY driver of housing prices over the long term (5-10 plus years) is inflation. The exception is major disruptions like the Great Depression, changes in lending following WWII and the recent boom, which was also driven by change in lending practices. My guess is that prices in 3-5 years will be very close to where they are now. Maybe they will be a little higher (inflation based). Maybe they still have some falling to do. It will be many decades before places like FL, Vegas, or Phoenix see the peak prices. You look pretty young in your picture, so you might actually see that day. Personally, I don't expect to see those prices again in my lifetime.

    Your posts make me think you want this to be easy. Look at some web sites, send someone some money, wait for the checks. Its not going to be easy. Its not easy for me, and my rentals are 30 minutes from my house. Do some research on what cities in the midwest have good growth prospects. Which ones have business friendly governments that encourage new business. Which ones have growing population and a diverse set of businesses. Heck, for that matter, you could write down the names of the 20 largest cities east of the rockies and west of the east coast and pick five at random and start digging into those. Learn about the prices and rents all over the city. Here in Denver rents are not that different in different areas. Prices are wildly differnet. Most areas make no sense as rentals. A few will work. You can find those areas by looking at prices and rents online. realtor.com is a place to start, though the local web site, recolorado.com is better. Craigslist is a good source for rental info. Many ads list addresses. If you want more details, pick up the phone (or skype). If you have an accent, get rid or it, or the landlord or PM will think you're a British or Nigerian scammer.

    Then, jump on a plane and spend a month in ONE city. Drive around and get to know the place. Drive up and down every street in your target areas. Go to REIA meetings. Find agents or wholesalers to feed you properties. Make some calls and start talking to contractors. You're going to have to develop a network quickly, unless you want to stay in a city for a few months.

    Honestly, I do not know how you can possibly buy good deals and get them up and running from afar. Kansas City is a one hour flight from Denver, and appears to have good deals, and I still can't bring myself to do it at that distance. I can't imaging trying to do this from Australia. You're going to have to build a trustworthy team on the ground and work closely with them. I'd advise you to visit six cities for at least a couple weeks each. Then pick one, and spend a couple of months there acquiring the first one or two properties. Build your team. Then work with them to expand your empire. After a year or two and a dozen properties, add another city.

    I assume you have a big pot of money. If you're looking for no-money-down deals, forget about it. Yes, there are turnkey investments where for a few grand you can get into a house. And a few of those actually seem like acceptable deals. Most looks like really weak deals with a lot of advertising, promotion and hard-sell behind them. Fundamentally, if someone's doing all the work, they have to be making some serious bucks. And, yes, its possible to find good deals with owner financing of some sort. But you're not going to find those from afar. If that's your model, you're going to have to spend some serious time in a location, really building up a network.

  • Real Estate Investor · Sydney · Member since 2010 · 11 posts · 0 votes
    16y

    Hi Jon,

    Firstly, many thanks for such a detailed response. The information that you’ve provided is invaluable and I’ll certainly bear a lot of your points in mind in my future property endeavours.

    I definitely agree that there’s no shortcuts when it comes to investing in property and acknowledge that it’s crucial to understand the market intrinsically if I hope to make good acquisitions. My knowledge of the US property market is still very limited and I know that the conditions in the US is a stark contract to the market here in Australia – and Sydney in particular. The real estate market in Sydney is very strong with prices high & yields, low.

    My fiancée is from Texas so we will be travelling to Dallas frequently. As such, it should provide me with some good opportunities to learn more about the market. We are also considering relocating to the US next year (not sure where at this stage) so I’ll be able to really get hands on with different projects.

    One quick question – in your post, you mention that “$100 per unit per month in true cash flow is not easy to achieveâ€. What gross rent are you referring to in that statement?

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    16y

    If your finance is from Dallas, you should invest there. No question. Its a decent market from what people here say, and you already have a reason to be there.

    Gross rents don't really matter for the $100. What! you way. How can that be? In most markets, there is only a narrow range where properties work. Keep in mind the implications of the "50% rule". Since you're going to be long distance and paying a property manager, and paying a handyman $50-100 to make a repair that would take an hour of your time and cost $5 in parts, you'll certainly hit this 50% rule. That rule tells you:

    cash flow = (rent / 2) - P&I payment.

    I'm assuming you will be financing the property. Not quite sure how you'll pull that off, and I'll come back to the all cash alternative in a minute.

    Also, for the moment, lets assume you can get 100% financing. The $100 number really makes that assumption, too. Its possible to achieve that with various creative strategies, but I suspect you're not going to be using those since you're not on the ground here. Nevertheless, lets start with that and see what it takes to get $100 in cash flow from the property. Then we will add in a 30% down payment and a 100% down payment (all cash) and see how that improves the cash flow. Realize thought that the improvement is from the cash you've sunk into the deal. The first number, assuming 100% financing, give you a better handle on the property itself.

    Now, rents are the factor you have the least control over. Those are set by the market. Not sure of rents in Dallas, but I suspect they're not too different from here. Lets pick three rents and go with those. $500 for a cheap 1BR apartment. $1000 for a 3/2. $1500 for an upscale house.

    Lets take the formula from above and do a little algebra:

    cash flow = (rent / 2) - P&I payment

    cash flow = (rent / 2) - PMT (rate, term, loan)

    Remember loan is 100% of the purchase price for this case. Lets assume we want $100 in cash flow, and solve for the loan (price). PMT is the payment calculation function from a financial calculator or Excel. PV is present value, which computes the loan amount from a payment.

    max payment = (rent/2) - desired cash flow

    max price = PV (rate, term, max payment)
    max price = PV (rate, term, (rent/2)-desired cash flow)

    I'll assume 6% and 30 years for the loan, since that's the current rates for NOO loans. Again, no idea how you're even going to get a loan, let alone the terms. I'll also use $100 for desired cash flow and the three rents from above.

    Rent $500 -> max price of $25,019
    Rent $1000 -> max price of $66,717
    Rent $1500 -> max price of $108,415

    Now, in some places you can buy a small house or an apartment for about $25K. That would include any fixup the place needs to make it rent ready. It should also include your closing costs. Here in Denver, essentially impossible. In Dallas or surrounding areas? Perhaps.

    Its difficult, but more feasible to be into a 3/2 for $67K. Not everywhere, but there are areas where, with a lot of work, you could come very close. I'm confident you can do this in Dallas, though it will still take work.

    To get $1500 in rent, you have to have a really nice place. I have a friend at my day job who moved here from MN a couple of years ago. His wife only wants to live in one specific neighborhood. He wants a good deal. So they've still not bought. Houses in that neighborhood are about $400K. He rents one of them for $1400. That's a LOOONG way from the $108K you can afford to pay for a place that will rent for $1500. Now there are other areas here where you can get a lot closer. But its actually more challenging to find that than to find the house that rents for $1000. And you're still getting only the $100 in cash flow.

    If you're buying $200K houses in "nice neighborhoods", its really tough to even get the $100. You need about $2600 in rent to coax $100 out of a $200K house, and that's impossible in most areas. Certainly impossible here in Denver.

    This set of calculations tells you what you need to be looking for.

    Now, what happens if you kick in 30% down, or pay cash for those same deals? Your P&I payment goes down and cash flow goes up. Now you have cash into the deal, so a "cash on cash" return becomes meaningful. To make the calculations simpler, I'll assume the values computed above include rehab and acquisition closing costs.

    Rent $500 -> max price of $25,019
    30% down payment -> cash flow = $145, cash on cash return = 23%
    all cash -> cash flow = $250, cash on cash return = 12%
    Rent $1000 -> max price of $66,717
    30% down payment -> cash flow = $220, cash on cash return = 13%
    all cash -> cash flow = $500, cash on cash return = 9%
    Rent $1500 -> max price of $108,415
    30% down payment -> cash flow = $295, cash on cash return = 11%
    all cash -> cash flow = $750, cash on cash return = 8%

    With that 100% loan, your cash on cash return is infinite, since you have no cash in the deal. When you pump a lot of cash into the deal, your cash on cash goes down. Then, you have to consider other investments. You can certainly do much better than 8% return by making hard money loans.

    Lets use these numbers to get you to your $20K goal:

    Rent $500 -> max price of $25,019
    30% down, cash flow $145, doors needed 138, cash needed, $1.03 million
    all cash, cash flow $250, doors needed 80, cash needed, $2.00 million
    Rent $1000 -> max price of $66,717
    30% down, cash flow $220, doors needed 91, cash needed, $1.82 million
    all cash, cash flow $500, doors needed 80, cash needed, $2.67 million
    Rent $1500 -> max price of $108,415
    30% down, cash flow $295, doors needed 68, cash needed, $2.21 million
    all cash, cash flow $750, doors needed 27, cash needed, $2.93 million

    Pick your poison.

  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 689 votes
    16y

    Excellent posts Jon!

  • Real Estate Investor · Sydney · Member since 2010 · 11 posts · 0 votes
    16y

    cheers Jon! you're definitely right in that there are many options to choose from. I guess it's about doing the proper due diligence on each deal and ensuring that the numbers stack up. Thanks once again mate.

  • Member since 2010 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    16y

    I'm curious, Mr. Pang; I interpreted your intial words to mean that you were an investor (cash on hand or readily available), and that there might be an opportunity available for someone with the wherewithal to find a great deal here in the U.S. to make a handsme finders fee, or possibly a share profits deal.

    From your words, one would think that you would be the backer. That would have a tendency to drive someone to find a deal that woud benefit you and the dealfinder. Was that a wrong intrepretation of your words? Do you have cash or a signature to invest in a great deal, or not?

  • Mobile Home Investor · Spanaway, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 578 votes
    16y

    Rule of thumb for Mobile Home PArks is to allot 30-40% of gross rents for annual expenses. Perhaps you might want to look into this as a possible investment. We started with homes moved to apts then on to MHPs and are very satisfied with the mobile home parks.

  • Investor · Southlake, TX · Member since 2009 · 950 posts · 338 votes
    16y

    Michael, just saw your thread. Welcome to BP! Continue to read and ask all the questions you can on this site. It's a tremendous education. Be sure to assemble a team of professionals, partners, mentors, etc. to assist you in your goals. You should take into consideration the amount of equity you are able to invest when making a decision on what type of real estate your interested in. I agree with Jon. Start in DFW.. Besides the ability to travel here, it is one of the strongest markets economically speaking, strong job growth. That can be said about all of the major Texas cities.

    Good Luck!

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