Picking a State - Income tax or property tax?

Picking a State - Income tax or property tax?

Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes

Hi there!

I have the means to invest about $40,000 dollars (down payment, repairs, closings costs etc.) into a 3/2 SFH in a desirable state with a buy-and-hold strategy. In addition to state income tax, property tax, and state unemployment, there are other variables that I have taken into consideration which have helped me to narrow down the states I would want to invest in. With $40,000 to invest, I should be able to get a home that is priced <$180K currently.

I am 23-years-old and this will be my first rental property. I am reluctant to make this investment at a market top. My desired strategy is to access a substantial amount of capital that I will use to buy depreciated homes a few years into a recession. However, I want to have the knowledge to be able take advantage of such a situation when it happens. Therefore, I am willing to make this first purchase as a means to learn about the process.

The states I have narrowed it down to are Colorado, Texas, Tennessee, Delaware, and New Hampshire. My question to you is: what has a bigger impact on your income as a landlord, state income taxes or property taxes? I understand that this question is nuanced. My guess is that with a single-house portfolio, income tax will have a bigger effect when job income is taken into consideration. However, on the scale of 100 houses, property taxes will have a bigger effect. This is just my guess. The impact of property vs income tax is hard to calculate when income tax brackets are progessive. I also have no idea how rental income is taxed state-by-state.

The location of this first house does not have to be the same location where I will buy a cluster of houses in the future. My goal with this home is to be able to pay down the mortgage with at least $100-200 cash flow. I expect it to depreciate if a recession were to hit. But it doesn't matter much to me as long as the home is occupied, the mortgage is being paid down, and I am seeing at least a small cash flow. I have a great spreadsheet calculator that accounts for everything (inspired by Brandon from BP).

I have listened to many BP podcasts (100+), read at least 5 books, and done plenty of my own spreadsheets.

Thanks for the answers!

Sincerely,

Jacob Hartman - Murrieta, CA

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Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Jacob Hartman This is going to be extremely simplified by I will say property taxes are more of an impact. Why? You have to pay them. The taxable income from my rental property (on a property by property basis) is lessened through depreciation and mortgage interest. So, if you carry enough debt you're golden! Not that you want to (or should) carry that much debt. Not that depreciation works as well in high land-value states. Not that property taxes don't get (effectively) lowered in California thanks to Prop 13. And I'm sure I could come up with a bunch of other caveats. But maybe that helps a little.
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  • Union, NH · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 12 votes
    9y
    Hi Jakob. I live in NH and have owned a couple different multies here. Property taxes are an issue here but depending on where you buy, rents more than make up for it- if you buy right. I'm also a licensed agent in NH so if you like to talk more let me know.
  • Oakland, NJ · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    @Jacob Hartman Do you live in a state that levies an income tax? Frankly I would go with a state that doesn't have an income tax and it's not an either/or. If you invest in a state that has an income tax you will pay both since just about every state levies property taxes. Take TN for example: no state income tax and low (where I have looked) property taxes (compared to where I live). If you invest in a state that has an income tax you then have to file a tax return in that state, making more work for you.
  • Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 885 votes
    9y

    @Jacob Hartman @Ryan Sullivan  @Joseph McGranaghan

     If you want clarity in how much it matters which state you pick, see this post.

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/45...

    @Joseph McGranaghan

  • Oakland, NJ · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    @Ken Min Thanks for sharing. I am not surprised my state made two of those lists. I can't wait to get out of here.
  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    My question to you is: how do you plan on learning the business with a property that is thousands of miles away, where you will need to hire others to do everything for you? Do you think that that may have an impact on your income as a landlord? Are you saying that you are confident as a newbie that you will be able to predict the monthly income and expenses every month within $100-$200 (your cash flow)? Are you saying that with no established network in those markets or previous RE knowledge that you will be able to choose a PM to put your financial future into their hands?

    Income taxes and property taxes seem like 3rd order issues compared to the questions above. BTW, you are already sitting in a state with some of the lowest effective property taxes in the nation (thank you CA Prop 13). Income taxes are easy to legally shelter, if you know how ... property taxes, not so much.

  • Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @David Faulkner ... I plan on learning the business by starting with a single house. I can handle a single house no matter how many thousands of miles away it is.

    It being located far away will definitely have an impact on the cash flow. I will likely need a manager. Somewhere in the vicinity of $100/month give or take a few 10's. There will be a few other costs due to the distance, but I will be taking every precaution that the property will still cash flow at least $100.

    I'm confident, more confident than anybody my age putting their money into Index funds. Most of my friends aren't doing jack to begin with.

    I have established networks in specific places and that will certainly factor into my decision. My financial future will not depend on this single house or a manager.

    I mixed my question up a bit by combining my current situation with my future goals. My future goal would be to own 10's of houses near an area I live in. Would it be better to own 10's of houses in a state like Texas where there is no income tax? Or would it be better to own 10's of houses in a state like Colorado where the lower property taxes can be 100's less a month per house than Texas?

  • Spring, TX · Member since 2016 · 243 posts · 203 votes
    9y

    If you're investing 40k and expecting $100-$200 cash flow a month...you're expecting a 3-6% cash on cash return, at best.

  • Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Joseph McGranaghan I am highly interested in New Hampshire. It's in my top 5 of states to settle down in. My 16-year old brother wants to move there. It fits out values. 

    In fact, New Hampshire is the reason I am asking this question. It seems to me that property taxes in NH can add $200 or more per property per month in expenses relative to a state like Delaware. That could be an extra $100k if one were to own 40 SFH. On the other hand, it has zero income tax.

    Let's say I had a line graph. The x-axis is [# of SFH]. The y-axis is [Property + income tax]. Let's say I compare two states on that graph, New Hampshire and Delaware for example. One state has no income tax and high property tax. The other state has low property tax and medium property tax. Those two lines will eventually cross, and one state will be far superior when the # of SFH approaches 100... which state is that, isn't it Delaware?

  • Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Kevin Coggins I was just throwing numbers out there. What I meant was $100-200 minimum. The reason I said that is because I want experience. Onec I invest beyond a single house I will be shooting for returns of 15%+, if not 20%. Otherwise if that wasn't possible I would skip all the effort and buy index funds.

    The experience of going through this process is very valuable to me. The cash flow will be much better in the future. I do not expect it to be great at this market top.

  • Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Ryan Sullivan I appreciate the answer, Tennessee is one of my picks for the reasons you suggested as well as some other things I have taken into consideration.

    Filing a yearly income tax won't stop me from investing in any state. That small amount of work would be worth it to invest in a favorable state economy.

  • Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    Jacob Hartman This is going to be extremely simplified by I will say property taxes are more of an impact. Why? You have to pay them. The taxable income from my rental property (on a property by property basis) is lessened through depreciation and mortgage interest. So, if you carry enough debt you're golden! Not that you want to (or should) carry that much debt. Not that depreciation works as well in high land-value states. Not that property taxes don't get (effectively) lowered in California thanks to Prop 13. And I'm sure I could come up with a bunch of other caveats. But maybe that helps a little.
  • Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Thanks @Account Closed! I really like looking at the bigger picture and your data complements the data I've collected on property and income taxes. I will add it to my spreadsheet. I also look at current unemployment rates, population growth, %age under 18, 18-35 as well as data relating to how each state fared in the last recession. I also have to look at median home values since I wouldn't be able to generate enough cash flow or make the down payment on a $350k, 1800 sqft 4/2 in inland Southern California.

  • Spring, TX · Member since 2016 · 243 posts · 203 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jacob Hartman:

    @Kevin Coggins I was just throwing numbers out there. What I meant was $100-200 minimum. The reason I said that is because I want experience. Onec I invest beyond a single house I will be shooting for returns of 15%+, if not 20%. Otherwise if that wasn't possible I would skip all the effort and buy index funds.

    The experience of going through this process is very valuable to me. The cash flow will be much better in the future. I do not expect it to be great at this market top.

    Gotcha, that makes way more sense. Being that I'm in Texas maybe my view is a bit twisted, but property taxes suck (especially when they are over 3% in some areas). I'm not sure if it's the same in other states, but here as an investment property, there is no cap on how much they can raise the appraised values in a given year. I've never owned any property in other states, but I'd assume states with lower property taxes and an income tax would be more favorable. Mostly because that property tax is based on some magical number a guy gives your house as he drives by. With income taxes, there's at least ways to reduce your taxable income

  • Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Andrew Johnson I appreciate the simple answer! We could spend hours diving into details. I'm sure it's hard not to expound on your answer because you don't want to mislead a newbie like me but I promise I'll be careful not to depend too much on what you had to say!

  • Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2016 · 164 posts · 83 votes
    9y

    if you focus on the deal, the state really won't matter much. 

  • Bill S.Pro Member
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    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jacob Hartman:

    Hi there!

    ... The states I have narrowed it down to are Colorado, Texas, Tennessee, Delaware, and New Hampshire. My question to you is: what has a bigger impact on your income as a landlord, state income taxes or property taxes? 

    Colorado is a large state (5th largest in the union if I remember right). You can buy in declining counties and purchase a property all cash that would meet you criteria. Easy to find 2% rule properties in those areas. At the same time in the Denver metro market, your $40k won't get your foot in the door except maybe a low end condo (might meet the 1% rule on a good day) if you can find financing for high renter occupancy complex.

    That said it sounds like you have your mind made up about New Hampshire. Hope it all goes well for you. I doubt the next recession will produce the same opportunity in real estate that the last one did. 

  • Realtor · San Francisco Bay Area, CA · Member since 2016 · 123 posts · 48 votes
    9y

    @Jacob Hartman I agree with @Steve Racicot that the deal matter more than taxes.  Taxes is a factor, but it's not the most important factor.  Buying in a state/city with job growth and population growth is much more important than buying in a lower tax state.  

  • Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Bill S. As far as Denver metro goes, what if I had $50k and could find 10% or better financing? What if also I prepared for 6% closing costs, kept 6 months in reserve and had $5k+ for improvements, all just in case? Seems to me that $50k could do that in certain parts of the metro.

    I actually haven't made up my mind about New Hampshire. Out of all 50 states it most closely matches my values-system. I would definitely live there. That being said, I would hesitate to to build a portfolio of 20/40/80+ homes there if the property taxes are going to eat tens of thousands out of my bottom line relative to a better-suited state.

  • Murrieta, CA · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Jen L. thank you! Do you have any other metric for job growth other than the unemployment rate? I don't completely trust the seasonal unemployment numbers myself, but at the very least it tells me which states have better employment than others. Population growth is an easy number to measure and verify. When I see "150,000 jobs added" it is hard to verify.

    Population growth is why I like a state like Texas or Colorado which have grown 10% from 2010 to 2016.

  • Union, NH · Member since 2015 · 15 posts · 12 votes
    9y
    Jacob, here's the short story on NH property tax. Because we have no income or sales tax, town cost including schools are mostly paid for through property tax. So each town is different. If you buy in a town with some high end homes such as lakefront homes, or cities with a lot of business, the tax rate will be less. If you buy in a smaller populated town that doesn't have much for high end or industry, tax rate will be more. State wide it varies from about $15.00 per thousand to $40.00 per thousand- rough numbers. All that being said I agree with the others that it's more about the deal than it is the taxes, all though they are a part of the annual expenses.
  • Realtor · San Francisco Bay Area, CA · Member since 2016 · 123 posts · 48 votes
    9y

    @Jacob Hartman You may want to check out if the city has diverse employment vs. one big employer and how likely they are going to stay.  

    Have you looked into the central Valley in CA?  I think they have pretty similar metrics as out-of-state investment and you can drive there in 3-6 hours.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Worcester, MA · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 38 votes
    9y

    Hi @Jacob Hartman ,

         I think theres another consideration you may have overlooked. If you're looking for cashflow and don't even plan to see the building or handle the tenants on a regular basis why wouldn't you buy a multifamily building with like 3-4 units and get a way better return?

  • Rental Property Investor · Murrieta, CA · Member since 2016 · 129 posts · 67 votes
    9y

    Hi @Jacob Hartman I'm from Murrieta CA as well. New Hampshire is definitely not as hot as it is out here right now... That would be nice.  Congrats on being into investing so young, I wish I had started in my early 20's!

    I ended up researching markets, decided on Indy. A lot of time went into finding the team that was right for me but after I did everything fell into place. I am just closing on a duplex and am hoping to do another later this year or early next year. It is important when looking for a team that you ask for references, ask BP about the company or people in the company, search the BBB and internet for complaints. Complaints from tenants upset about not having late fees waived shouldn't deter you - the company I settled with had 30 complaints and 28 of them were complaints of late fees or deposit money from damages so I only looked at the 2 from home owners.

    If you ever want to meet up for coffee sometime I'd be happy to discuss OOS REI with a fellow Murrietan

    Good luck!

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