Deal Review: House Flip - Proprietary Deal

Deal Review: House Flip - Proprietary Deal

Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes

Community,

By way of quick background, I'm a young non-real estate private equity professional and really believe in talking directly with people who know their stuff. My network really is limited in the house flipping world, so I felt BiggerPockets would be a great channel for discussion.

I have stumbled across a unique (I believe) non-marketed deal in the flipping space. I have never flipped a home before, but have worked on many middle market and large business transactions so am diligent up front.

A close friend of mine's parents passed away last year and he was left with an negative balance estate and a ~$450k mortgage. He is in NJ where there is no personal liability for the Executor of the Estate if he chooses to have the bank foreclose, so this is currently what he was planning on doing.

However there may be an opportunity for him to assume the mortgage and for us to do a deal.

He tried to sell through a broker a few months back in the $525k range but could not find a buyer. The house has not been kept up but its in a really really good neighborhood (I grew up there) and the last 3 houses sold for $580k, $620k, and $675k (this one had a lot of work done). This house is ~3,700 sq. ft. on 2 acres and a pretty solid front view of the mountains.

Our thoughts were that he would assume the mortgage from the estate and I would fund all the requirements associated with a renovation project. We would then target a $625k sale. I read about the 70% rule that says you should take your projected exit price net of your renovation expenses and multiply by 70% to get your optimal purchase price (in this case it would be $350k).

I am modeling the project with $70k budget for general contractor and interior designer to update the kitchen and related appliances, new carpets, maybe some fresh paint (or whatever else the designer suggests like new ceiling fans, etc.), master bathroom, and some other minor items we are missing in initial projections. 

This would put the bank 1st lien / 1st dollar out, with me as an unsecured note to my friend at 20% annual non-cash interest rate for $70k and a 35% ownership in the gains (his only initial risk is assuming the mortgage which is below the market price of the house).

Questions below:

1) Is this a crazy deal? Are we not projecting enough for the renovation or expenses?  

2) Any suggestions on hiring a couple general contractors to come in and evaluate/provide a quote? 

3) Is there a big opportunity to negotiate with the lender and how much? (Possible to go to $350k from $450k for example?)

4) Should we consider bypassing the broker and self-advertise on the exit?

5) What other expenses are we not considering? Assuming vacancy insurance, mortgage P&I, title, small expense for permitting, potentially property tax for ownership

6) How long should we project to hold the property for? I read 4-8 months on average for a renovation and a flip but I'm assuming 9 months.

7) Is there a lot of risk at $450k mortgage, 9 month hold period, and $70k renovations? Essentially need to sell at $570k+ with all the expenses factored in (we don't knw if this is probable)

Apologize if any of this is so obvious, but we are inexperienced in this space.

Thank you!

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Greg H.Pro Member
Moderator
Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y

My point is there is no reason to assume the loan and the liability .  Keep it in the Estate. 

I have another alternative.  You indicated that he tried to sell for $525k with no interest.  If the property is truly worth close to 600k with renovations, there is an as-is number that would generate interest.  Y'all could agree to be 50/50 partners and:

-Do the minimum to get the property to look its best in its current condition. Spruce up the outside with landscaping.  Clean the crap out of the interior so it smells like new. Do the minimum repairs. Your all in could be a couple of thousand dollars .  Could be less with some sweat equity

- Market the crap out of it. Offer the selling agent 3%. Consider using a discount broker to get MLS exposure (under $500)

- You are now in prime sales time for the north as it is summer. Sell it for what it will bring and split the profit.  This limits your liability to a few grand

-

See this reply in the discussion

20 Replies

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  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    Oh, and if we do this deal we plan to provide financial updates frequently as the deal progresses for vicarious experience for everyone here.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Little Elm, TX · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 0 votes
    9y

    If the rehab is over 50k. It's not enough to be made.  After it is foreclosed, it will be listed by a listing agent that lists homes for banks, like myself in the Dallas TX area and then you can make a decision to make an offer.   

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Troy Hebert

    I would not do the deal for the following reasons:

    - The numbers are too thin and you are not absolutely sure of the numbers.  This is your first flip and the "unknowns " will sink you

    -You are the only one with risk in the deal.  This is never good for a partnership.  Why would you only want 35% of the deal?  You indicated "he ways prepared to walk away"

    -The lender is not going to negotiate a discount.  Why would they?  The property is not underwater 

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Debbie Warford:

    If the rehab is over 50k. It's not enough to be made.  After it is foreclosed, it will be listed by a listing agent that lists homes for banks, like myself in the Dallas TX area and then you can make a decision to make an offer.   

     This is what I was thinking as well. If we got a quote for the whole remodel from a general contractor, would it be appropriate to add 20% to that figure for the actual completed total cost? 
    In regard to the foreclosure, the bank is looking to avoid that for logistics and costs associated.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    @Troy Hebert

    - The numbers are too thin and you are not absolutely sure of the numbers.  This is your first flip and the "unknowns " will sink you

    Would it not be enough to consult an experienced professional like yourself upfront to walk through the model and the expenses, assume a downside case, and see if we are still money good? Unless house flipping is different, it's always difficult to be absolutely sure of the numbers (at least in other deals I've done)

    Great point, I understand this and am negotiating with him now. The way I see it is the bank is 1st lien through $450k and my ~$70k from the renovations is next in the waterfall. So I the house will have to sell for less than $520k, after $70k of upgrades, which I believe is unlikely. I am also getting paid 20% PIK interest on that $70k, which is equity-like returns. For him, he will be assuming the mortgage and the principal & interest payments on that during the 6-9 months as the guarantor without my involvement. He is also local and I am 1.5 hours away, so he will be managing the entire renovation process (general contractor, the designer, etc.) and make an attempt at selling it himself to bypass the broker fee (which increases my equity value). If we sell it for greater than $610k, he will make more than me. But if its between $520k and $610k, the likely range, I will make 30%-40% returns. Maybe this is a small amount for a house flip (you would know!), but as a private equity guy if I can get 35% IRR with limited downside risk I'm in. To supplement that comment for the forum readers, I am viewing limited downside risk as selling the house for less than $520k to begin to take a loss. Given this is a home in a great area and market, it is unlike a small business that could BK in 1 year. It needs to sell for $490k after $70k of upgrades for me to lose 35% (equal weight on the downside). I am also using my ex-investment banker skills, and will be syndicating my $70k investment and doing third party loans with private parties at 15% and taking a 5% arbitrage on that money.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    @Troy Hebert

    -The lender is not going to negotiate a discount.  Why would they?  The property is not underwater 

     You are experienced so I trust you are right here. Our initial thought was that because they've been so reluctant to foreclose and try to work with him, that we could actually come to the table and offer a 5-10% discount and forbearance for next twelve months for them to avoid the entire foreclosure and auction process, fees associated, etc. But we will have to see.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    And thank you for the replies, this is a long post so there was a clear effort to help here and I appreciate that. 

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Troy Hebert

    You have thought of some creative ways outside of your partner to possibly make some extra money which is commendable.  However, you have a partner that was prepared to walk away but you now think he can manage the project ,, market the property and handle the paperwork? Does he have any experience? Just my experience with human nature and your initial statement that he "was ready to walk away".  My guess is he will be fired up initially but when it gets difficult (flipping homes isn't easy), he can easily get back to the ready to walk away point

    Additionally, as the executor, he doesn't have to assume the loan.  If payments are made, the bank will not foreclose. Any other potential beneficiaries to the estate?  

    I cannot stress enough that you are the one taking all the risk here. I wouldn't do this deal is I was getting 100% of the profits much less 35% in this given scenario.  Just my 2 cents 

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    Greg - he was prepared to walk away from the mortgage held in the estate, given he has no additional capital to pay the mortgage plus the renovations to make a meaningful profit. There is no other beneficiary and he has no liability for the bank to foreclose. Once we decide to do this, he will then assume the mortgage and thus the liability, so he can't really walk away without having the bank come after him for the $450k. To your point about the bank not foreclosing if the payments are made, no payments are currently being made so we were hoping the bank would accept forbearance and renegotiation of the mortgage.

    Is your fear that things could get difficult and he would just sell the house for the mortgage amount to cover it? If that were to occur, he would have to sell the house under construction/renovation as that would be the point for which he would walk. The operating agreement of the LLC will require unanimous decision to sell the home. The downside case is that he stops working on the project while under renovation, decides not to sell, and allows the bank to foreclose on his mortgage, now under his name. I suppose I would then have to step in and finish managing the contractors myself (not really any additional capital as I am funding the renovations) and sell the house, thus covering his mortgage and my renovation expenses.

    The way I see it I am taking more capital risk here, with him taking the liability risk and his time. Maybe it is not the best deal.

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    My point is there is no reason to assume the loan and the liability .  Keep it in the Estate. 

    I have another alternative.  You indicated that he tried to sell for $525k with no interest.  If the property is truly worth close to 600k with renovations, there is an as-is number that would generate interest.  Y'all could agree to be 50/50 partners and:

    -Do the minimum to get the property to look its best in its current condition. Spruce up the outside with landscaping.  Clean the crap out of the interior so it smells like new. Do the minimum repairs. Your all in could be a couple of thousand dollars .  Could be less with some sweat equity

    - Market the crap out of it. Offer the selling agent 3%. Consider using a discount broker to get MLS exposure (under $500)

    - You are now in prime sales time for the north as it is summer. Sell it for what it will bring and split the profit.  This limits your liability to a few grand

    -

  • Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 23 posts · 16 votes
    9y
    Greg H. I love your answer! I agree, you should limit your exposure as much as possible. There are investors in that area that could purchase the property and make the renovations and sell. If you are set on doing this yourself, then offer your friend to assume the mortgage for him. He's going to walk away anyways. Why not assume the loan, do the repairs and sell it yourself? I don't understand why you would limit yourself to 35% profit. I would go to local meet ups and see if there is interest in the property as-is. Unload it now, make a small (but respectable) profit, and move on. Your time is worth $ as well, and any rehab will take 6 months +. Assuming all your numbers are correct, the total profit just doesn't seem like it's worth the hassle.
  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    Great answers guys! 

    Greg - My "renovations" were really going to be similar to what you were describing. I have no estimate, so I was being extremely conservative (and adding some additions to the kitchen that could make sense). But maybe this is best.

    On keeping it in the estate, he would not do that because any profits generated from the sale of the home would go to the estate. There are other liabilities in the estate that are not really his, and so he would never see the profits generated.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Troy Hebert,

    If the house needs work, then your minimum asking price should not be higher than the loan balance plus seller's closing costs. 

    You're going to get offers which have been calculated like this:

    (ARV x 0.7) minus buyer's closing costs, minus buyer's holding costs, minus rehab / repair costs minus buyer's expected profit (= Maximum allowable offer). Some may even start right at ARV.

    ARV of $600K x 0.7 = $420K So, it's going to be a bit of a tough sell. Offers may come in around $300K to $350K, depending how much work the house needs, the buyer's estimate of costs to repair and how long the buyer thinks that may take - not to mention how much profit they may be going for.

    If he can get the renovation done and ask for a better price closer to market (FMV), he might do better. Help HIM be the "flipper"!

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    Martha - on doing it myself, I am not local, so he would have to help coordinate contractors, let them inside, monitor it, etc. Also, I do not have enough funds for the down payment (which I assume is 20% so call it $90k?)

    I really don't believe the house is worth $600k as is. More like $500k. There was an aggressive sales effort that did not come to fruition. I believe it is because a lot of the appliances, countertops, etc. are outdated.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @David Dachtera:

    David,

    This is what the original plan was. Rehab it and sell it for FMV. But he doesn't have the funds for the rehab, so it was really a lost opportunity. I was coming in to enable the rehab and participate in some of the upside (think of me more as a mezzanine debt lender with an equity warrant).

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Troy Hebert,

    Do either of you have any family members who might have some retirement funds they could invest in this deal? If not, learn to attract and engage private lenders might be one way to do the deal.

    If it's easier for him to let the bank take it, then maybe that's the way to go.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    David,

    I have many people looking to invest with me. I can get the capital no problem if the deal is suitable.

    I'm not sure why that's an issue here though, I'm not tapped out on the renovation costs.

    It's definitely easier for the bank to take it, but we are trying to do what's harder and make some $ as opposed to what's easiest (if there's a feasible opportunity).

    Also, I confirmed, there was an as-is offer at $460k last year. Thats just enough to pay off the mortgage but not enough to cover broker and other selling costs, so he didn't pull the trigger.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Troy Hebert,

    That as-is offer may still be a good opportunity. Counter with your best estimate for a break-even closing.

  • Stamford, CT · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    We don't make any money on a break even closing, right? Would just let the bank foreclose.

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    With the estate having other liabilities, there is possibly another issue. As the Executor, he has a duty to make sure that the assets stand for the liabilities of the estate.  A potential conflict could arise with the creditors if he takes the asset and then resells for a profit. It would be hard to argue that there was no equity at that point. I would get a legal opinion 

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