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All Forum Posts by: Yi C.

Yi C. has started 2 posts and replied 7 times.

Quote from @Chris Martin:

@Yi C. I agree with the points in your post.

My Disclaimers:
1. I build and own my projects. Historically, I have not sought to acquire land with the intention of leasing the land to another developer/development company. I am not against the buy-to-lease method, for someone else to implement, but right now it's not what I do.

2. In my markets I am tactically focused only on <500 kW implementations. Strategically, I aim to fit into as many development exemptions as possible. The 'entitlements' part of most projects >=500 kW consumes most of the development timeline. I just don't have the patience to wait four years and spend 6-figures for environmental studies on a 1-MW, four-acre project. That's why no one builds 1-MW to 5-MW now. Projects have become really big or really small. 500 kW and under exemptions? Yes, please.

Projects, large and small, fail for a lot of reasons. Changing legislation, primarily at the state and local (county) level, I think, is one of the biggest reasons for cancellations in NC and VA. Many places are 100% NIMBY. Even some municipal electric companies don't want to work with small IPPs. Yes, I have first-hand experience with that (technically illegal) prejudice.
Lease problems sometimes result in project cancellations on larger projects. Technical issues with "impact studies" results and who pays for mitigating environmental issues is another.

On small projects, equipment upgrade costs for substations can be a showstopper. In Sampson County NC, SREMC handed me a $100,626 estimate for substation upgrades for a 500kW project. I put that project on the back burner since higher development costs and thin margins were already causing us concern.

Thanks again for the response. These are absolutely very valuable information to help me adjust my strategies!

I would expect buy-to-lease strategy is suitable strategy for people without "hardcore" backgrounds in interconnection, permit application, system design and project management. These are really out of my capability to navigate. This comes with drawback that I have no control over the design. This links to the system design.

Here is my guess regarding the system size trending (I might be wrong) - Most of the developers I have got in touch with (at lease in CA) are still interested in 1-5 MW projects as more and more transmission project suitable lots were taken/investigated/too expensive to construct. Though CA authorities keep limiting the interest of such projects, I can still see interest in these projects based on the interconnection queues - still new ones are being added to study despite the increased cost and reduced revenue.

You also make a great point regarding < 500kW systems. I can see as more and more lots were being investigated developers will move to smaller projects that sits even closer to customers. Just got few thoughts:

1. Are these ground-mount system or roof-mount? I saw there are lots of roof-mount implementations on parking lots/high schools in CA recently. I would see zoning will be an issue for small ground-mount implementations. Zoning codes across different places did put limitations to ground-mount solar projects that exports and sales while roof-mount ones seem to be less restricted.

2. NIMBY, public hearing, environment study is going to be an issue absolutely. I am hoping the lot being worked on can go through but no one knows. Different counties/towns has different requirements on who to contact for public hearing. Imagine close to dense residential plot and required to invite all residents for public hearing - it will be a headache to go through.

3. Upgrade is going to be an issue no matter the size I believe. I did have a chance to went through some phase 1 studies. Imagine putting 3 MW project that requires 1-2 million to upgrade distribution line, substation, putting smart monitor etc. This is my biggest concern. I do know some developers might be willing to pair with battery to improve interconnection stability but battery fire news will be another concern to neighbors (and myself).
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Yi C.:
Quote from @Chris Martin:

@Jay Hinrichs pinged me so I am posting. Note that my experience is limited to NC, SC, VA jurisdictions, so keep that in mind when reading this or my other posts about solar.

Regarding "Solar farm land lease is generally very profitable," on the east coast at least, that is not necessarily true. There was a time, briefly (a few years), about a decade ago when some prime solar farm site owners signed favorable LTLs (Long Term Leases.)

Regarding "...about 50%+ of the option will not go through." The real numbers, per the U.S. Department of Energy under Contract No. DE-AC02-05CH11231, are not great: "Only ~20% of projects (14% of capacity) requesting interconnection from 2000-2018 reached commercial operations by the end of 2023. Completion rates are even lower for solar (14%) and battery (11%) projects."

Regarding Interconnection, keep in mind (same reference as the above link) "The typical project built in 2023 took nearly 5 years from the interconnection request to
commercial operations.
" Also, for ground-mount systems, most developers require 200-300+ contiguous acres, a relatively flat parcel, no wetlands or endangered species, and three phase power line access adjacent to the property. For distribution connected projects, the property needs to have close proximity (ideally adjacent) to a utility substation. Larger projects (e.g. 50MW+) generally interconnect with the transmission operator facilities, so you'll need transmission lines close by. For example, on Duke Energy's Warsaw site, collectively 87.5 MW, the developer built a new substation off Penny Branch Rd. since the generation facilities exceeded the existing distribution capacities. On Google Earth, use the two dates 4/2017 and 1/2018 to see the build-out. (Google Maps location)

I'm not sure what the "wholesale export rate" means. In general, developers will model revenue with SAM or an equivalent tool for non-dispatchable production. I am most familiar with fixed rate PPAs with rates that change by season (monthly summer, winter, shoulder) and time (hours on-peak, off-peak). The wholesale electric rates depend on location and time-of-day in 5-minute intervals. Wholesale rates generally average $0.02 to $0.05 per kWh.

Most west coast IPPs deploy solar with energy storage systems (ESS) to time-shift out of the low to negative margin day rates. The CAISO (California ISO) real time markets routinely go negative in summer from 10AM to 2PM (solar peak time), meaning the customers with non-dispatchable roof-top solar will be charged for putting solar onto the grid. During solar peak time, the CAISO market also routinely sees generation from renewables exceed the total grid load, which is quite incredible. See https://www.gridstatus.io/live for the real-time grid monitoring, status, and rates. 

Thanks for your incredible information and I stand for corrected in several points. I learned a lot from your information.

Just to clarify, the "profitable" term from landowner perspective depends a lot on how much the lot is acquired and how much the lease payment goes. Different investors might have different tolerance to the 80% risk. But it's something worth noting.

Regarding the reason why project failed (I am just providing my guess and could be wrong). It could mostly be connected to costly upgrades to the system where the finance won't go. Now I still feel interconnection is hard to estimate as investor even some of these information are available online and this is the biggest risk I am taking here. Most of the other requirements (land features, proximity to substation) can be possibly screened before the decision.

Regarding the acreage, I believe there are two different types of solar farms being discussed but correct me if I am wrong.

1. Transmission project - So this is where 200-300+ acreage is needed as this type of project needs to tap in high voltage transmission line. There are several large projects showing up in California desert as well and they are easily identifiable from GOOGLE map.

2. Distribution project - This type doesn't need several hundreds of acreage, some of them can even work around 20+ acreage and 1-5MW . A good example is Lancaster, CA. GOOGLE map will show a bunch of much smaller solar farms connected to 12kV distribution line and with nearby substation. Such projects can also be found in New York upper states or states with community solar aggregate policy. This is the main topic I am referring to, as most of the transmission projects are already being researched.


well I dont know anything about this industry.. but I do know the sun shines more in Lancaster Ca than anywhere on the East coast :)  Lancaster is the desert. not sure if that makes a difference or not.
Just to mention Lancaster, CA as an example. Climate is a factor towards developers' interest but not decisive. There are lots of small scale solar farms in upper state NY, MA, ME due to their more friendly solar farm policy.

Regarding Timerland investment in the comments.. I haven't heard of this until today and glad I learned something new. I found there are more things to take care (management, interest, understand tree, high land price and long waiting time) but I might check into some REITs to diversify my portfolio.
Quote from @Chris Martin:

@Jay Hinrichs pinged me so I am posting. Note that my experience is limited to NC, SC, VA jurisdictions, so keep that in mind when reading this or my other posts about solar.

Regarding "Solar farm land lease is generally very profitable," on the east coast at least, that is not necessarily true. There was a time, briefly (a few years), about a decade ago when some prime solar farm site owners signed favorable LTLs (Long Term Leases.)

Regarding "...about 50%+ of the option will not go through." The real numbers, per the U.S. Department of Energy under Contract No. DE-AC02-05CH11231, are not great: "Only ~20% of projects (14% of capacity) requesting interconnection from 2000-2018 reached commercial operations by the end of 2023. Completion rates are even lower for solar (14%) and battery (11%) projects."

Regarding Interconnection, keep in mind (same reference as the above link) "The typical project built in 2023 took nearly 5 years from the interconnection request to
commercial operations.
" Also, for ground-mount systems, most developers require 200-300+ contiguous acres, a relatively flat parcel, no wetlands or endangered species, and three phase power line access adjacent to the property. For distribution connected projects, the property needs to have close proximity (ideally adjacent) to a utility substation. Larger projects (e.g. 50MW+) generally interconnect with the transmission operator facilities, so you'll need transmission lines close by. For example, on Duke Energy's Warsaw site, collectively 87.5 MW, the developer built a new substation off Penny Branch Rd. since the generation facilities exceeded the existing distribution capacities. On Google Earth, use the two dates 4/2017 and 1/2018 to see the build-out. (Google Maps location)

I'm not sure what the "wholesale export rate" means. In general, developers will model revenue with SAM or an equivalent tool for non-dispatchable production. I am most familiar with fixed rate PPAs with rates that change by season (monthly summer, winter, shoulder) and time (hours on-peak, off-peak). The wholesale electric rates depend on location and time-of-day in 5-minute intervals. Wholesale rates generally average $0.02 to $0.05 per kWh.

Most west coast IPPs deploy solar with energy storage systems (ESS) to time-shift out of the low to negative margin day rates. The CAISO (California ISO) real time markets routinely go negative in summer from 10AM to 2PM (solar peak time), meaning the customers with non-dispatchable roof-top solar will be charged for putting solar onto the grid. During solar peak time, the CAISO market also routinely sees generation from renewables exceed the total grid load, which is quite incredible. See https://www.gridstatus.io/live for the real-time grid monitoring, status, and rates. 

Thanks for your incredible information and I stand for corrected in several points. I learned a lot from your information.

Just to clarify, the "profitable" term from landowner perspective depends a lot on how much the lot is acquired and how much the lease payment goes. Different investors might have different tolerance to the 80% risk. But it's something worth noting.

Regarding the reason why project failed (I am just providing my guess and could be wrong). It could mostly be connected to costly upgrades to the system where the finance won't go. Now I still feel interconnection is hard to estimate as investor even some of these information are available online and this is the biggest risk I am taking here. Most of the other requirements (land features, proximity to substation) can be possibly screened before the decision.

Regarding the acreage, I believe there are two different types of solar farms being discussed but correct me if I am wrong.

1. Transmission project - So this is where 200-300+ acreage is needed as this type of project needs to tap in high voltage transmission line. There are several large projects showing up in California desert as well and they are easily identifiable from GOOGLE map.

2. Distribution project - This type doesn't need several hundreds of acreage, some of them can even work around 20+ acreage and 1-5MW . A good example is Lancaster, CA. GOOGLE map will show a bunch of much smaller solar farms connected to 12kV distribution line and with nearby substation. Such projects can also be found in New York upper states or states with community solar aggregate policy. This is the main topic I am referring to, as most of the transmission projects are already being researched.

Quote from @Dustin Tucker:
Quote from @Yi C.:
Quote from @Dustin Tucker:

I think the one negative about buying land and doing a solar lease, is that it is no longer taxed as a Agriculture exempt, this is a major negative to the project.  I assume that you would have some sort of guarantee on the lease if there is a hail storm.  One option that might make more since is finding a bitcoin mining operation, because with Starlink, you can essentially set up an operation anywhere, so if you can buy $100/acre land in a sunny climate, Bitcoin Mining generates approximately $.085/kw in electric rate.  I'm not sure if that works for solar, but it opens up more possibilities.

Thanks for the input. As the landowner investing the lot, I have no plan to use it in agricultural or consider Ag exempt unless solar farm project failed. This would be a legit concern for farmers to consider though.

Regarding the exit strategy, I did thought of solar + bitcoin mining a while. However the initial capital would be too large (panels + room + GPU investment) for me. Personally I would just consider either lease it cheap to nearby farmers, check with another solar developer if the reason is not prohibitive or sell at a loss. 


 I guess you are doing a net land lease where the solar company is paying 100% of the property tax. I know from researching tax roles this year, that the appraiser's in Texas have valued the Solar panels farms very high and I don't know if there is litigation regarding the taxes, but there are several solar farms with unpaid taxes.

Solar company I am working with will pay any increased tax due to installation of solar panels. So I am responsible for "base" tax only (~$500/year). Property tax section of lease is definitely critical and should be examined carefully. I found these systems tend to be valued > mil and tax amount will be high if developer is not responsible for this.

Regarding leasing for bitcoin + solar... This is a very interesting idea! I would foresee most of the developers won't touch this due to uncertainties of bitcoin mining. But it will interesting to see if any developers are looking into this avenue. I did some quick check and 0.085/kW (assuming hr) is similar to wholesale export rate so it might serve an alternative to developers.
Quote from @Dustin Tucker:

I think the one negative about buying land and doing a solar lease, is that it is no longer taxed as a Agriculture exempt, this is a major negative to the project.  I assume that you would have some sort of guarantee on the lease if there is a hail storm.  One option that might make more since is finding a bitcoin mining operation, because with Starlink, you can essentially set up an operation anywhere, so if you can buy $100/acre land in a sunny climate, Bitcoin Mining generates approximately $.085/kw in electric rate.  I'm not sure if that works for solar, but it opens up more possibilities.

Thanks for the input. As the landowner investing the lot, I have no plan to use it in agricultural or consider Ag exempt unless solar farm project failed. This would be a legit concern for farmers to consider though.

Regarding the exit strategy, I did thought of solar + bitcoin mining a while. However the initial capital would be too large (panels + room + GPU investment) for me. Personally I would just consider either lease it cheap to nearby farmers, check with another solar developer if the reason is not prohibitive or sell at a loss. 

I have been checking into this idea - find vacant land, determine it's general suitability, find developer and sign the option to lease. I found there's not too much people talking about this idea here so I want to open this topic. I'd like to share some of my thoughts and hopefully I can get useful insights and connection with more people in the forum.

Just to disclose - I am not a professional in solar industry and I might be wrong. So please take my words with grain of salt.

1. Solar farm land lease is generally very profitable, provided you find right place, right price and it went through. That's why many farmers/landowners are willing to sign the lease. Plus the developer will take care of maintenance. You don't have to worry about plumbing, bad tenants, fixing issues. 

2. However, solar farm also come with huge risk in development. What I heard is about 50%+ of the option will not go through. There are many things we can't control even if we did our best due diligence. That's why developers sign the option with landowner, so they can leave if things go wrong. This should definitely put into consideration and have some exit strategies if it failed. 

3. As of now, many potential sites were either identified by broker/developer or too expensive to acquire. However if you are lucky you might still find some places suitable for solar farm and yet to be noticed, especially after the increased interest in community solar. It allows smaller lots to be considered. Here are some factors to be considered.

Interconnection - This is a very deep topic and biggest risk to the project. That's where you might find information about "distance to substation" and "capacity". You can try to check if utility companies have such information to help you understand the the site. However sometimes these information might not be correct and you should really do your DD on this. Exception happens (for example, a project built miles away from substation) but in general you'd like to maximize the chance to success and best to avoid the risk factors.

Land - Generally it should be at lease 20 acres. But it will be complicated by different factors such as flood zone, topology, conservation area, easements, access to roads and more.

Zoning - check the code and check site zoning. Also you can check if the place has additional requirement to solar farm construction.

Policy - Federal grants, state grants, policies. Does the state allow community solar? Is there incentive/grants available for this site?

There are things I didn't mention such as process of buying land, negotiating the lease, insurance. I will leave these topics later if I got chance and focusing on project development here. Overall I would treat this investment as a high risk gamble and willing to accept loss if it failed but It's also a very interesting process to understand how the industry works.

Post: Solar farm land lease general liability insurance

Yi C.Posted
  • Posts 7
  • Votes 2

I have identified solar farm developer for my vacant lot. However the lease term indicates the following.

"At all times during the Lease Term and throughout any Removal Period, Landlord and Tenant shall, each at its own expense, maintain a policy or policies of comprehensive general liability insurance with respect to the respective activities of each with the premiums thereon fully paid on or before due date..."

I tried to search for general liability insurance for solar farm land lease but hard to find one. I also don't think this is the same as vacant land insurance. Can someone provide advises/agents for this purpose?