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All Forum Posts by: Tom Mole

Tom Mole has started 1 posts and replied 246 times.

Post: What's wrong with this Loopnet listing w/ projected 17% cap rate?

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

Hi @Sarah Lorenz,

Have you ever looked at a real estate broker's description of a single family home. If it's super small, they call it "cozy". If it covered in overgrown vegetation and original paint and rotted trim, then it's "cute". If it needs a little TLC, then it's a money pit and if it's "investor's delight" then it's a tear-down. Loopnet is like that but on steriods.

The proforma number are pure poop. They mean nothing! Never, ever buy at a price based on what an asset could be. You make your offer on what it is, where it is and in it current state and condition. Ignore entirely what the cap rate would be at 100% occupancy. It never will be 100%. Look to the market where the asset is in order to find the occupancy rate then round down to the lower percentile. (example: the local market vacancy rate for comparable assets is 13%, then your occupancy figure is 80% at full performance.)

Next, even when your occupancy is relatively high, you should figure the turn over rate, concessions and economic vacancies. That is to say, how do you get the occupancy up and how much does it cost to keep it there. If you can rent the units quickly, but the tenants don't stay for long, the cost of tenant acquisition can add a lot your expenses, which can have the same impact to your bottom line that extra vacancies would.

What happens when you rent your apartments out? Do you have to offer inducements, like the "first month free" or "all utilties paid"? Do you have to lower the rents you charge across the board to push occupancy north? Who do you attract when you do these things? Are those tenants going to keep paying the rent once the concessions run out? How many of these folks are you going to have to evict? If these costs were compared to the cost of lower occupancy, would you be better off to let a few units remain vacant longer?

When I look at a Loopnet listing with high vacancy I ask myself why are these units not rented. Often it is NOT due to a lack of tenants, but rather having units that are not in rentable condition. If the vacant unit are not safe, clean and livable, then they are not rentable. A unit I cannot rent is a liability, not an asset. I never pay asset prices for liabilities just because I could make it an asset someday if I put up still more investment. That's like buying a broken down VW bug just because it used to be new and that's just stupid.

Now, that being said, I look at Loopnet from time to time. I agree that Loopnet is where "commercial deal go to die" when they are not good enough to attract buyers in better market segments. Loopnet is the Walmart of the commercial marketplace, but deals can be found at Walmart because there product is priced accordingly. Loopnet has deals for someone who can sort through the fluff and deception to assess the real value in a particular deal, set a maximum allowable offer price and terms and then negotiate to that threshold.

There is great deal more to consider than the occupancy and cap rate, but I ain't writing a book here. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The point is this: a 17.27 cap is pretty good. Now get that number based on a 42% and a $100k in repairs. Your LOI should should offer something closer to $1.35M for the portfolio and then only if everything else is working great. If they won't talk to you at that price point, then sigh a huge sigh of relief, move on to the next property and let a stupid person buying that lousy listing. Never offer to pay for what a property "could" be worth.

Cheers!!

Post: Finally found the strength to start

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

@Isza A., congrats on overcoming your nervousness and getting started. I noticed you were on Brandon's weekly webinar, so I know you're still moving forward. There's an entire community out here willing and anxious to help you become successful in real estate. Don't let fear keep you from asking for help. Once you see how people respond you'll wonder why you were ever nervous in the first place.

So, what are interested in learning? What sort of guidance are you looking for? What do you want to achieve?  Have you read the "The Ultimate Beginner's Guide to Real Estate Investing"?

Don't be shy. You've said it, there are a lot of great folks out here with great ideas and advice. We're just waiting for you to ask. Maybe I could contact you for advice about the Chicago area in the future.

Cheers!!

Post: 15 unit apartment renovation, financing options?

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

@Account Closed, so true! Andy isn't giving us the NOI, cap rate or purchase price, so we're just swinging in the wind as far as valuation is concerned. No one would finance against collateral that cannot be evaluated, wouldn't you agree??

So, @Andy Schwaderer, what is your purchase price? What is your current gross income less expenses, not including your payment to the seller? What is the capitalization rate for similar apartments in your area? How much of the purchase did the seller carry and what does he charge you for this loan? 

Bob and I would like to help, but we need some more details. Thanks.

Cheers!!

Post: Purchased a property foreclosed by HOA earlier, now what?

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

THIS is why I hate property that has an HOA. They can just be so much trouble. I read the thread and @Bhanu P., this guy is SOL, so keep your head up and take back your property!

Cheers!!

Post: multi property loan officer

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

Hi @Tammy Ratnam,

Nobody is going to be allowed to recommend anyone to you here in this open forum. Besides, you've left out a lot of details that would lead to a decent referral. I mean, who cares what the tax assessor thinks? What is the property worth? What do you want the loan officer for? Are you trying to finance this 12 unit portfolio? Do you want help figuring out how to finance it?

I'd be happy to help you figure it out. Don't get discouraged. You can do this thing.

Cheers!!

Post: 15 unit apartment renovation, financing options?

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

Hi @Account Closed,

What I was getting at here is if you're NOI is $3k/month and that represents 9% cap in a 9% market, then things are about where they should be and your purchase price is about $360k (in this example). However, if your NOI represents 3% cap in a 9% market, then you paid way too much and you may well be underwater, even if you could afford the cost of money. The risk is not covered by protective equity, so a lender would have to "just take your word for it" that you'd repay the loan. Scary!

I just don't have enough of @Andy Schwaderer's numbers to make an informed decision. My left pocket won't even lend to my right pocket without clear and complete numbers.

I hope this makes it a little clearer.

Cheers!!

Post: Existing Duplex, additional 2-unit potential

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

@Ian Turner, with all due respect, it sounds like a can of worms! However with stable tenants bringing in $21,600/yr and only about $6,000/yr in expenses, your NOI is about $15k (rounding down), which should be enough to pay your mortgage with a little leftover. If the owner bought the place at a much lower price point, he may well be making a fine cash flow. So, I wonder why he's selling... really?

Perhaps he's inclined to keep most of the cash flow and let you deal with the tenants. Smart! Unfortunately, this means you're basically working for him as his property manager, which is probably not what you had in mind. However, if you can turn this into a fourplex as you have in mind, it could be a decent investment.

Now you said that there really aren't any comps in the area. That makes me nervous. How do you know that "if you build it, they will come"? I suspect that your estimate of costs to build out two units is very optimistic. I believe you're planning to convert the basement, which may keep your costs down, but have you planned for permits with whatever troubles that come with inspectors that just won't leave to do what you want to do? Have you considered the additional load on plumbing and electrical? What about parking? Can you bring in additional utility metering? You get the idea, right?

On the whole I think I get an idea what you have in mind. I think it could work based on what you've mentioned, but it could be a can of worms. Make sure you know your market. It won't do you any good to build basement units if you can't find tenants for them. They won't stay if they can't plug in a cell phone without tripping a breaker or if the neighbors use all the hot water and they end up taking a cold shower. Just one empty unit means a 25% vacancy rate despite the market rate of 5%-10%. Budget reserves for this eventuality and you should be OK. I'm just saying think it through completely. We get into trouble when we focus on just the upside or the downside to the exclusion of the other.

Congrats on your find. It sounds like something you could do. I'd love to hear how it comes out. 

Cheers!!

Post: 15 unit apartment renovation, financing options?

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

@Andy, there's something weird in your numbers. It seems like you're figuring your debt service into your direct operating expenses. How much do the about 11 units bring in each month and how much does it cost each month to make this happen, EXCLUSIVE of paying the owner carry? You'll need this to be clear for anyone, bank or investor, to be willing to back you. Really I wouldn't care as much about the "how much" answers as I would the "percentage" answers. In other words the $3k/month would not matter if you turn out to be making a 3% cap rate in a 9% cap market.

Next, how is spending $135k going to improve your gross income from $5k to $9k and how long will that take? Just ball parking on the numbers you gave, in which it appears that 11 units are producing the current income. Are the last 4 units going to rent for $1k/month? Do your numbers include vacancy at market rate? How long will it take to start realizing the new gross income? Besides debt service will your expenses increase against the new gross income?

If I were asked to lend $135k for renovations, I would need a lot better description of your financials. What is your current Loan to Value (LTV) and Debt Service Coverage Ratio (DCR), which means, how much do you owe and how well can you pay for it? I would probably not lend you rehab money on a second if it would put you over 65% Combined LTV (CLTV) and/or under about 1.1% DCR), even if your future income numbers could come true.

I'm surely NOT trying to discourage you, but suggesting that you get the "weird" out of your numbers before talking to anyone about a loan. I would NOT even finance the rehab out of my own pocket until I got the weirdness out of the numbers. Not knowing or being willing to know the numbers is often how we talk ourselves into financial disasters. Don't be that guy!

From all of this you SHOULD have questions, since I glossed over and skipped a bunch of details. If you have questions, feel free to contact me. I'll do my best to help.

Cheers!!

Post: Multi Family Under Contract - Mentor Eyes needed

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

@Kaiser Akram, I'm on the wrong coast to meet with you face to face, but I'd be willing to dialog with you on your project, if you would find value in that.  I want to congratulate you on your project and offer kudos for your willingness and intelligence to come to the forum to ask for support. Many investors would be wise to follow your lead.

I was going to recommend that you contact @Chris Tracy until I noticed that he has already proffered his help. It be worth your time to talk to Chris as he is in CT and would have insights that you might not be aware of. I would call him, if I had your deal under contract.

If you have any particular concerns or would just like a second set of eyes on your project, please feel free to contact me. I'll do my best to help.

Cheers!!

Post: New investor from SoCal

Tom Mole
Posted
  • Investor
  • Sunland, CA
  • Posts 260
  • Votes 240

Welcome to the BP community, @Johnny Ho. You're gonna love it here!

You happen to live in an area loaded with meetup for investors! I could recommend plenty of people and place in or around you area, but I'm not allowed to do that in the forum. Send a PM and I'll point you at some of my thoughts.

In the meantime, go on Meetup.com and put in the search terms "real estate investing". You shall be overwhelmed. I would also search for Cashflow 101 games close to you. There is one in Anahiem today at 1:30pm. This is a terrific way to meet folks, learn investing and have fun doing it.

Next, sign up for @Brandon Turner's weekly webinar. It super educational and you'll get a great introduction to what BiggerPockets has to offer.

Check out the "The Ultimate Beginner's Guide to Real Estate Investing". Reading this is like pouring foundations before building a house. You won't want to miss this.

There's a lot more I could suggest, but I've already given you enough to keep you busy for a week. I hope this helps.

Cheers!!