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All Forum Posts by: Tom Carroll

Tom Carroll has started 3 posts and replied 7 times.

Post: Post Mortem on a 'failed' deal

Tom CarrollPosted
  • Green Bay, WI
  • Posts 7
  • Votes 2

Thanks Greg.  It's hard because the darn things still cash flow, its just the overall rate of return isn't where it needs to be for me, especially if I run into surprises.  Just feeling a little depressed and confused because everyone but me thinks it's still a good deal.

Post: Post Mortem on a 'failed' deal

Tom CarrollPosted
  • Green Bay, WI
  • Posts 7
  • Votes 2

I recently made an offer on three properties with a total of 14 units (mix of studio, 1, and 2 bedrooms) of $420,000 (listed at $480,000.  Seller countered at $455, I came back at $450k and we had a deal, subject to the usual requirements.

Per the seller the properties had an annual income of $60,000 and expenses of $25,000. NOI of $35,000, 8% cap rate for his original list price of $480,000.

Rents are slightly below market value so there is room to raise them and the property looked in decent shape.  My expenses would be higher - particularly insurance (new, inexperienced owner represents higher risk), and taxes.  The tax assessed value of the properties is $340,000.  If I buy them at $450,000 the taxes will go up, the only question is how much.  Most of the surrounding properties tax assessment is 1-2% higher than selling price.  In the sellers financials only $1,200 a year was spent on repairs which made me wonder how much maintenance had been deferred and how real his numbers were.  

As I ran my numbers (using the Bigger Pockets calculator, another site's calculator, and my own spreadsheet) I came up with a NOI of $30,000, a 6.8 cap rate using $450,000 purchase price. Financing terms were 4.1% on a ten year note amortized over 25 years, 20% down, $2,250 a month. Worst case numbers I know, but I'd rather plan for the worst and be pleasantly surprised. $90,000 down payment, $5,000 in closing costs, $1,800 for the inspection. I knew going in one building would need a roof within a year (figured $12,00) and another $5,000 in miscellaneous repairs (worst case). Total cash invested would be $115,000. Cash flow of $5,000 a year.

Overall looks pretty good. As long as I'm above my numbers the cash on cash and overall (planned on selling after 15 years) ROI was going to be about 8-9% annually.

Then we did the inspection.  The condition of units themselves weren't bad.  Usual little things like smoke detectors, some non-GFI outlets, a couple outlets wired backwards or not working, some windows that didn't open or wouldn't stay open, some rotten wood and cheap repairs/installs.  A little shabbier than I hoped for but about what I expected.  

The condition of the buildings is a different story.  Building A needed a new roof two years ago.  You can see the plywood sheathing, evidence of past/present water damage, coping replaced by some sort of spray foam sealant, etc -est repair $10,000.  Chimneys needed to be tuck pointed and lined.  They are still the orignial clay lined from when the house had central coal heating.  It now has gas fired heaters in each unit, all going into the same exhaust stack.   Estimated repair $2,000-5,000 and the inspector said it could go higher depending on how much degradation has occurred in the 15 years since the gas heaters were installed.  Second floor units balcony/emergency egress has rotten wood ( rear unit had noticeable movement with two people standing on it, front unit literately came apart) estimate of $500.  Gutters are not attached (see above roof issues) and draining into the foundation.  Conservatively I'm looking at $15,000 in repairs that can't be put off.

Building B has a crushed support post and damaged cross beam.  The seller 'fixed' it by putting 4 jack stands around the crushed post.  Roughly $2,000 to fix it correctly so the floor stops sagging.  Add in another $1,000 for minor repairs of a banister (missing spindles), some rotten boards on the outside steps, a few leaky pipes (and flooring around them) and some serious tree trimming.

Building C needs a new roof, estimate of $12,000 due to the difficultly.  Several steep pitches, dormers etc.  As my inspector descended it went from a creep, to a scramble, to a controlled fall.  Chimneys needs roof caps, furnace exhaust (which doesn't come up thru either chimney) is missing a section so it's basically venting into the attic, and either the furnace or one of the three water heaters has a small gas leak (smell was very noticeable when entered but quickly dissipated).  Gutters need to be redesigned and the yard needs to be graded to control runoff (as is at three points the gutters are "designed" to not have downspouts).  There used to be a garage attached and partially under the second story.  The seller removed part of it due to rot but couldn't completly demolish it as the 'garage' was structurally important to the second floor.  It's door wouldn't fully open and it is currently full of storm windows (for windows that were replaced) so we couldn't get all the way in but from what we could see the exterior wall is floating in at least two places (1-3 inches of space beneath the posts).

All together the inspector (who I found and is very reputable according to my agent) said I would be looking at $40,000 in repairs to do everything.  Not everything he thinks needs fixing/replacing needs to be fixed/replaced.  At a best case I think $25,000, worst case $35,000.  My realtor and the seller's agent think I'm being excessive but

When I originally ran the numbers $450,000 was my maximum purchase price, including repairs, closing costs, etc.  I stretched going up to a $470,000 all included.  The extra $15-20,000 of needed repairs but me beyond what I was comfortable with so I went back with a counter of $425,000 as is.  My realtor thinks the deal is dead, and I tend to agree.

Was my reading of the situation right or did I panic?  What would you have done differently?  What should I do different/better next time?

Post: What is stopping you from making your first deal?

Tom CarrollPosted
  • Green Bay, WI
  • Posts 7
  • Votes 2

I've got an inspection contingency so I can walk away if the seller doesn't either fix or renegotiate.  I'd prefer the seller to recognize I'm taking his entire portfolio in one deal, saving him time and money and to realize that it's a business deal, not a personal,  emotional transaction.  

As Armando said, sellers (at least in my market) are asking B/C prices for C/D areas/properties.

Post: What is stopping you from making your first deal?

Tom CarrollPosted
  • Green Bay, WI
  • Posts 7
  • Votes 2

I'm part way thru my first deal right now - 3 building 14 units.  Accepted offer of $450,000; financing in place; appraised value at $420,000 due in part to excessively low tax assessment (20 years since the last tax assessment raise).  On the surface it appeared to need only minor repairs and one roof.  I could drop up to $15,000 in repairs and it would still cash flow $6,000 a year assuming an expense rate of 55%.

During the inspection it was discovered that the roof I thought needed to be replaced has 4 layers of shingles, a crappy repair job around the chimney flashing, and we're pretty sure most (if not all) of the sheathing is damaged.  That building has individual gas space heaters in each unit and they are all venting into the same (unlined) chimney along with the gas hot water heaters, there is a second chimney that will need to be seriously rebuilt or removed.  The second building needs a new roof, it's hvac exhaust is missing a two foot section in the attic, and the gutters are draining wrong so the foundation is being washed out.  The third building has 4 jack stands in a 10 square foot area supporting a crushed pole (and some wood rot on the outside staircases but that's an easy fix).

Rough math says between $30-40,000 in repairs once you add in all the minor stuff.  Even at $30,000 in repairs the deal no longer makes sense with a $450,000 purchase price.  Even if I thought it would still work my lender almost had kittens when he saw the inspection report.  Seller thinks he's giving me the deal of a lifetime right now and doesn't want to negotiate.

This is what's been stopping me from completing my first deal.  I have no desire to fix and flip/hold as my schedule doesn't really allow for dealing with the rehab so I need properties that are in decent shape.  Most of the properties that fall into that category in my area are way over priced for multi-family (duplexes and up) or in need of too much rehab (and still overpriced)

Post: Biting off more than I can chew

Tom CarrollPosted
  • Green Bay, WI
  • Posts 7
  • Votes 2

I've been looking at small multifamily  (3-4 units) online for a while now with the intention of house hacking,  I've read as much of the free educational materials I can.  I've even ran the numbers on some deals and looked at actual sale prices and have been pretty accurate on fair market value.  Decided to get off the sidelines and started working with a realtor,  first set of showings was this morning.

4 of the 8 places we looked at are owned by the same individual who is retiring out of state and wants to divest himself of his real estate holdings.  Property A (130k), B (175 k), and C (130k) are reasonably priced, 8% cap rate.  Property D (175k) is overpriced (by about 30%) and will need a roof/chimney in the not too distant future  Property A has a significant sag in the middle of the house that has been there for a long time.  Other than that they're in good condition with longish term tenants (2.5 year avg).  I haven't gotten the financials yet but the seller's agent said they look good.

Because of the sag I don't really want property A.  Properties B and C are next door, a 6 plex and a 4plex.  B is the better deal, butI thought about trying to snag a deal by buying both as I would need commercial financing anyway if I went for B.  

Then for giggles I ran the numbers on buying B, C, and D.  At list price the numbers worked, barely but they worked.  Running the numbers at what I think fair market for D is the numbers look good. 1.3 dsc, 6% cash on cash overestimating expenses .  I can come up with the 20% down but it would leave me with a VERY small emergency fund.

Is buying 16 units and maxing out my cash on hand the dumbest thing I could be doing as a new investor?

 How much do you think I can reasonably ask the seller to come down from list by buying multiple properties? 

Post: Listed way over value

Tom CarrollPosted
  • Green Bay, WI
  • Posts 7
  • Votes 2

single family homes and duplex/triplexes seem to be priced at reasonable levels and most seem to be moving in 6-8 weeks.  It's the 4+ units that seem inflated.

There's a 4 unit (two bedrroms each) listed at $180k, rents for $550 including at least heat and water.  Within a three block radius there are two houses, each with a 3 bedrrom lower and a two bedroom upper listing for $65k and $59k.  Even having to drop $20k (doubt it would be quite that high) and higher closing costs the houses are listed at 10% less than the apartment building while having the same or higher gross rents.

Adding to.the mystery the houses were tax assessed at $90k, the apartment at $120k.  

I just wanted to see if my thought process was way off before I start wasting a realators time.

Post: Listed way over value

Tom CarrollPosted
  • Green Bay, WI
  • Posts 7
  • Votes 2

I'm new to REI so there's probably a very simple answer I'm overlooking but I can't seem to understand why sellers are listing at such inflated prices.

I'm looking in Green Bay, WI and am still at the preliminary stages of crunching numbers and prospecting for a Realtor (suggestions welcome). All the properties I've looked at are listed at least 20% above the max I would pay in order for the property to cash flow. These properties have been listed for several months. Working from a rough estimate of NOI and a cap rate of 6.4% I get valuations 15-25% below list price.

Is there something wrong with my math or what else am I missing?  I know I've over estimated expenses and vacancy which will hurt projected cash flow but I also assume that there is at least one unknown variable that I haven't accounted for.  Is putting in offers that much below list acceptable for multifamily?