All Forum Posts by: Thomas S Blue

@Mona V. - Sorry for the delayed response. From the online maps/aerials, it appears there is a culvert across Locust Lane near the intersection with Elmwood Drive. I think it is visible using Google streetview - from that, however, it seems not to be blocked and well maintained.

Planning to be there - thx!

Disclaimer (of course) - This is all based on the information you provided and the available data I found online. I haven’t been to the site and is not to be taken as a detailed engineering assessment. (Though hopefully that is obvious.) That being stated, from Wake County GIS iMAPS data and the permit form, it seems the soil is probably a sandy loam or sandy clay loam with depth to seasonal high water table probably 5 to 7 feet below ground surface. There were no obvious problems with the site based on elevations, soils, aerial, and permit information. Possible causes might be improper construction (possibly a clogged D-box in addition to settling soil); higher water table (is Locust Lane culvert to northeast clogged?); unusually higher rainfall recently; changes in the occupants water use, laundry use, food/drinks, chemicals; a sock or something flushed down the drain; a combination of these or something else. Best guess - from what you describe - is improper construction (including grading and concrete riser seal). With a very flat site like that, depressions above the system can capture and concentrate a lot of water. I’d be interested in what you find.

On another note - you are correct about “perc” tests. Those haven’t been performed in NC for septic and other on-site wastewater systems for decades. For most small systems, a site evaluation is performed per 15A NCAC 18A .1939 (see link below). Without getting into the engineering details as to why, a perc test is just not a good tool for designing these systems and it was abandoned quite a bit ago for those reasons. A more involved procedure using some fancy equipment like a closed constant head permeameter can provide useful information, but is too involved (read as costly) for the average site.

NC Septic System Rules - http://ehs.ncpublichealth.com/oswp/docs/rules/1900...

@Paul Winka - The PE would discuss your needs, measure/assess the existing conditions, provide structural support options, perform the analysis, size the members, and prepare the plans. The project may be simple enough that no specifications set is required other than what can be included on the plan sheets. That may also be the case with a statement of work and bid documents. It also depends on whether the engineer would oversee, inspect, and certify the work. Your local jurisdiction may adequate inspection services to suffice, but the engineer would probably be involved. (I have been very involved throughout the whole process on some projects and just in the discussion/design portion on others - the simpler the project, usually the less my involvement - which is probably obvious.) I am not in Missouri - so guesstimating - typical billing rates for a PE doing this type of work would likely be in $90/hr-$140/hr range and it would probably be about 4 to 12 hours of work (depending on existing conditions, needs, certification, location, etc). A local PE that does this type of work regularly, probably has the analysis routines set up in spreadsheets or other software, templates set up in CAD and word processor, and knows what local inspections department will require.

@Paul Winka - Though it may not be required in your state or local jurisdiction, it would probably be best to hire a licensed/insured contractor to do this work and hire an engineer separately and directly to do the analysis/design.

Along the lines of what Evan wrote - Are you sure it is "landlocked"? Though real estate law varies from state to state, the owner would almost certainly have property access from a public road through an implied easement if not otherwise provided. The degree to which access is granted may be limited in some fashion, but it would likely provide for "full use and enjoyment" of the property. I suggest you and the sellers speak with one or more experienced local real estate attorneys and land surveyors. They would be involved in the process at some stage and now would be a good time to get them involved.

@Mona V. Apologies, I am not understanding "the top of the risers of the tank need to be at least 6 inch above the grade which they are not". Do you mean the outlet from the septic tank needs to be at least 6 inches above the leachfield pipe bottoms? The earth fill on the leachfield will settle and should be graded so that water does not pond above. Placing a meter on the well is a good idea. Are you saying that the leachfield area is saturated/soggy? If so, water is the level of of the liquid in the tank and is it backed up into the drain pipe from the house? Can you post the County permit with the system diagram? Photographs would be helpful too. If it is not flow from the house, it would likely be the soils unless the leachfield was improperly constructed (such as trench sealing or excess compaction. There may be a low permeability layer below the leachfield restructing downward flow - which should have been confirmed by the designer. Also - though you may already know this stuff - good sites for septic system information are:

https://www.epa.gov/septic

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/septic-systems-and-th...

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/septic-system-owners-...

http://ehs.ncpublichealth.com/oet/docs/cit/oswpmod...

Did this occur after Hurricane Matthew (and the rainfall in the prior weeks) or was this an issue before such?

General note ... there are dozens - maybe hundreds - of different on-site wastewater system system types, from basic "conventional" septic systems with a septic tank and gravity driven leach lines to complete package treatment systems (like a miniature municipal wastewater treatment plant). Installed costs range from around $1,500 to over $30k, with $3k-$6k more common for a new system. (Costs obviously vary not only with type and size, but also with location - just like houses).

If you are not able to install a fairly basic system or you have a more complicated system with problems, I strongly suggest getting input from more than one engineer with experience in designing these things (just like multiple opinions from different physicians).

An engineer that is experienced in on-site wastewater system can ascertain a lot using the property address - pulling up aerial imagery, topography, and soils data. Send the engineer the site plan/sketch showing system layout (if existing) and ask for half-hour to discuss options. They will not be able to give definitive answers on layout type and cost, but can give you likely paths that are best to take and associated cost ranges. Do this with 2-4 different engineers. Billing rates for most PE’s doing this type of work would likely be from $75/hr to $150/hr. Speaking with 3 different ones might cost you about $150-$175 and will be money very well spent. Such engineers are not common, but well worth the time spent finding them.

The engineer you hire for the design/repair will probably - but not always - work with a soil scientist (or sometimes a geologist) to develop options.

A good nontechnical information source for homeowners/investors is from the EPA - "https://www.epa.gov/septic".

Steve - Up front disclaimer: all septic system issues are site condition and regulatory jurisdiction specific and I have very little information to go on - that being stated ... Agree with comment to check with local officials - probably environmental health section of county health department - as you apparently have done. As you may know, most septic systems have 2 main components -the septic tank (usually split into 2 parts) and the leachfield (where the wastewater percolates downward from the leach lines/pipes). Unless the system was repaired or replaced relatively recently, the local government agency may have no detailed record (or any) of the system. If the local government agency does not provide a service for it, you would probably do well to contact a local soil scientist that has septic system experience or reputable septic system contractor. Most engineers and home inspectors have very little expertise with septic systems (there are always exceptions). What really matters if you are buying and holding the property - assuming permitting is okay - is whether the system works or not. A change in the occupants can "shock" the system and cause failure. For example, use by an elderly couple (usually low water usage) changing to a young couple with young children (lots of water use and likely more rich waste - think laundry, baths, and milk) can overwhelm the microbes in the system and/or the overall ability of the soil to receive the additional load. This can result in a wet smelly mess. If plenty of suitable land is available for a repair/replacement/expansion system, this may not be too big a deal ($1k-$3k), but if not (and sanitary sewer is not available) - a repair solution could run $5-$20k for a pumped or on-site treatment system. Replacing the leachfield is a much bigger deal than pumping out the tank. Of course, I have seen some systems 100+ years old with multiple owners and different uses requiring almost no maintenance and working well. Good luck!