All Forum Posts by: Kelly Farmer

As a final comment and closure: I've spoken to Dominique and Engelo directly and we've both had a chance to air our grievances. We've come to a mutual understanding, and decided it was best for both parties to move forward.

i appreciate both of their efforts to communicate with me directly to find closure.

As a final comment and closure: I've spoken to Dominique and Engelo directly and we've both had a chance to air our grievances. We've come to a mutual understanding, and decided it was best for both parties to move forward.

i appreciate both of their efforts to communicate with me directly to find closure.

Quote from @Dominique Osborn:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @James Wise:

If someone is going to cry about their ROI% on 1 rental property over a tiny 3 year window, it shows that they have fundamental lack of understanding of how the rental property business works.

When cap rate and ROI estimates are provide, that is a general indication of the how the average of properties in that asset class will perform over time.

At any tiny window with 1 small sample size you can greatly outperform and underperform. The same property is going to have wildely differing years folks. You could have a 3 year stretch where 1 property has 1 tenant and no repairs. Doesn't mean that property will continue to perform with no repairs and no turnovers.

Gotta use your noodles folks.

My fault here mate. Usually we are very good at pre-qualifying and asking the right questions to avoid such situations with investors. Looking at historical correspondence in our CRM that is 5+ years old, I can see there were warning signs that I ignored. Not blaming anyone here but definitely Ohio Cashflow wasn’t a fit. We never wanted to “discriminate” against folks only buying 1 or 2 properties but looks like we will have to. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Owning 1 or 2 properties in a tertiary market like Toledo isn’t worth the risk, hassle or return. And like my mate Zach above, the most unsatisfied investors are ones that only own 1 and have a bad run for a year or two. They get frustrated and just want to sell. Of course, Ohio Cashflow’s to blame and “scarcity sales” tactics. But hey, Lonna is awesome and Engelo is a wanker. Even tho Engelo hired Lonna and all of our people are representation of the owners core values and beliefs 🧐

All good though, we take full responsibility and always stand behind our efforts. Never running away. 

You Ohio guys (probably running similar games) can pat each other on the back all the way to the bank. It behooves you to do so. I would do it too if I were in your shoes. 

(insert random expletives to get the full Engelo gaslight)
"Yeah mate, I've seen this kind of investor before. I should have known. They just don't get it. Even though they had 3 years of sub 3% returns, and just found a $hit-ton of mold in the basement  that will probably write off most of 2024's returns as well...yeah, they just don't get it. Like you said, they'll probably have a 3-year stretch where the tenant doesn't mind the sink's hot water faucet (that we didn't think to repair) not working. (Insert hollow apology, repeat the one compliment and how it means you have some grandiose company culture cultivated by YOURS TRULY, in an attempt to reassure future investors that "this investor, [despite his ability to understand simple numbers about investment returns], just doesn't get it.)"

(Ironically, "you" or whoever is writing for "you" admitted the mold repairs SHOULD cost much more than $2,500. And just to repeat what your real estate agent told me, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation.")

Man, good on you for making the business you've created, but reading through some of the other similar negative experiences, I'm reminded that it takes a particular kind of person to do what you do: to speak to people "face to face" and deliberately misrepresent what you offer without blinking, then pat yourself on the back while backhandedly blaming your customer when they're upset that you didn't come close to delivering on what you advertised. 

I can already hear the retort. I could probably write it for you, it's that predictable: some ad hominem blaming the investor for not getting it, while saying "you just needed to buy more overpriced properties from us." (It's actually amusing.)

What you're doing is NOT a grift. I would never say that. You DO provide cashflow...Ohio Cashflow. But you're not entirely forthcoming with honest financial expectations. I mean, you can't be, or you wouldn't have a business. (Again, SOMEONE I LIKE AT YOUR BUSINESS SAID THAT TO ME.) So again, good on you. But at the end of the day, you don't care about what your customers who have lost say, because we've already paid your bills and we're out of your hair. 

One last thing occurred to me:

Is "we take full responsibility" a fart slogan you've adopted and just copy and paste to every negative review? I mean, "take responsibility" for selling you a $65k property for that 's actually worth $50k three years later? Or, "take responsibility" for delivering you a property with 3% returns despite saying the investor should expect 7% returns (on an advertised 9% return property)?
Your response: "Returns will average out higher over time. You needed to buy more." Yeah, yeah..."I get it."

Best of luck "mate."

U know sometimes you just have to take ownership of what you did what are you expecting out of a 65k house. Perfection  perfection in the build quality and condition perfect tenants.. the problem that I see is you went cheap and simply dont understand that properties at those price points are never going to be perfect they are old to older homes.. and your tenant base is basically the folks that can only afford that quality of housing so you get what you pay for.
U have to use logic and not just blame everyone for your choosing to invest in low value assets . These assets perform the exact same way in every market in the US. 

I mean just read all the threads right now on BP about syndicators having issues and investors not only getting ZERO returns but a real chance of a 100% loss.. so you did not make 9% no one guarantees your returns. And values are just an opinion at the time of an appraisal means nothing to value ..  If your going to buy these assets its UP TO YOU to have your PM and Pay your PM for quarterly inspections and then fix what is needed so you dont end up in this situation.. but of course if you did that its going to hurt your perfect calculated 9% return.

 You're right and I completely agree. This one's 100% on me. I should have been smarter. My gut was telling me not to trust Engelo, but I had some cash and offsetable capital gains on the sidelines, so thought I'd give turnkey a try. This is definitely not going to break the bank. I just wanted future turnkey investors to know what they were in store for. 

Thanks for the comment.

You have received a reply from the most reputable person in the real estate industry and the most trusted and admired Bigger Pockets contributor.

Someone that has known first hand how I operate and has played a huge part on putting my company on the map.

Someone that has no problems calling me out if/when I'm wrong.

So for all reading, I think Jay's words speak enough volume.

With your negative reviews blasted across every known Ohio Cashflow and Oz Realty review platform, it doesn't seem like you are taking responsibility so I disagree.

You are out for blood and that's fine.

You can have as much of mine as you want if it makes you "survive" and feel better.

As someone that wears his heart on his sleeve and bleeds for the business and our investors I'm happy to take 100% responsibility.

I have NEVER done what you have and would NEVER do what you have.

There are others ways to resolve such matters.

You could have approached me privately but "No".

You waited to sell the property and the day it sold you went on this rampage...

Reading our correspondence over my gut was telling me the same to not work with you.

Below are some of your comments from a few years ago.

It's such a shame it has come to this.

This conversation becomes more and more absurd as it continues: I lost $15,800 buying a property from you. I admitted being wrong buying one of your properties. I don't know any other way to "take responsibility" beyond eating that $hit burger. I wrote a review about my experience with your business. Hell, I paid $15,800 to be able to write it and I'm still in the wrong?

A recap of my review: "I bought the property for $65k. It was worth $50k (three years later, so don't expect appreciation). It's turnkey, but there will be a lot of repairs beyond the initial agreed upon improvements. Lonna (the property manger) was great. The place delivered 3% returns. There will be tenant turnover, which will eat into returns."

Fast forward to today:

Engelo: "I have NEVER done what you have and would NEVER do what you have. There are others ways to resolve such matters. You could have approached me privately but "No"."

Me: Literally ALL of "our" (YOU don't talk to anyone a few months after selling them a property) correspondence was private. Was I supposed to ask? "Hey, would you pay me $15,800 to recoup the losses for the $hit burger I bought three years ago?" Instead, I asked:

"Lonna,

Hello. I hope you are well.

After a year since my last email regarding potentially selling the property, I'm again considering it. I'm not sure that I want to increase the number of properties I own (which you said would increase my chances of return), so I was wondering what my options were. I think Ohio Cashflow and what you guys offer are both great, but again, if I'm not trying to build a more significant portfolio of properties, it might make sense for me to pursue other investment options.

Well I look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you.

Kelly Farmer"

The response:

"In my opinion you have a few options to consider:
1) List on the MLS (Not us but another agent that we can refer) (A commission will need to be paid to the agent and we have no idea of how long it will take to sell. Financing, appraisals and building inspections from prospect buyers could delay the closing quite a bit. The property can be listed through our "in-house" and trusted agent. We can request a discount on the listing fee and it will be most likely 1-3% and you will still need to pay the buyers agent fee. In Toledo properties take longer to sell than any other market. Toledo is known as a “Buy & Hold” market and not one where quick gains are made)
2) We can attempt selling through a sales channel (A commission will need to get paid to the sales channel and we believe some properties could sell quicker than the MLS. Some might sit for longer so please keep this in mind also. We are at the mercy of the sales channel. Ohio Cashflow makes no commission and the sales channels make anywhere from $7,000 - $15,000 for selling a property. The buyer would mostly likely be a cash buyer so their wouldn’t be too many hoops to jump through)
3) Ohio Cashflow can sell (A $15,000 commission would need to get paid to us and we also can’t guarantee how quickly we can sell as our #1 priority is selling properties that have just been rehabbed. Our livelihood depends on the volume of deals that we produce so existing deals where most of our capital is tied up are priority. The $15,000 might seem steep but when you calculate sales commissions to employees, closing commission to deal coordinator, administrative fees, marketing and the "opportunity cost" off not selling another property we own, we actually don’t make anything)
Those are pretty much the options at hand."

Back to our conversation:
Thank you for the screenshots to walk me down memory lane. For our readers, I'll remind them that YOU (Engelo) weren't dealing with me at that point so you have no idea about ANYTHING that was going on until you looked up our emails in the last three days. I wrote (per your screenshot):

"Engelo,
Hey, long time no talk. First I just wanted to thank you for 2021. I've been really happy with Ohio Cashflow and my investment with you guys."

As a mental exercise, can you imagine the perspective of an investor that bought a property from you just 8 months prior to that email, had his FIRST TENANT miss payments, lie about making payments, make partial payments, then ultimately skip out on four months rent? AND THEN...as part of the process, have to pay legal fees to evict the tenant? Should I say it again...MY FIRST TENANT?!?!

I can say this with 100% honesty from my heart of hearts, I was thinking, "F@@@@ck!! F@@@@ck!! What did I get myself into? Maybe if I kill them with kindness they won't f@ck me over with the next tenant."
So please don't have any misconceptions that I was in love with Ohio Cashflow and it (for some unknown reason) went sour. I thought "f@ck" from month five or six, but was hoping that being nice would turn a $hitburger into a $hit-cheeseburger.

Oh, and then shortly thereafter I got saddled with $800+ water bills IN THE FIRST YEAR AS AN OHIO CASHFLOW INVESTOR. Dude, this is comical. I'm bad. You're good. Thank you for repeatedly reminding me that "I just needed to buy more properties."      


Dude, I was a customer of yours. I bought a property from you. You bought it for $33k, put $10k (maybe?) into it  and sold it to me for $65k. Fine. I signed up for that. You advertised 9% cap rates, said to expect 7% (I understood and agreed to that), and it delivered 3% over three years.

And now, from left field, I have a different real estate investor weighing in. I only mention this because according to you he's "the most reputable person in the real estate industry and the most trusted and admired Bigger Pockets contributor":

"its up to the owner to have them inspected quarterly and remedy wet spots or mold at the first sign.. Not wait two years then be shocked and blame the guy who sold you the house."

A summary of my relationship with Ohio Cashflow: I live in Japan. I bought a turnkey property from Ohio Cashflow for cashflow in 2021. I had NO idea about the actual condition of the property because I was relying on Ohio Cashflow/Oz Realty to take care of it. My last tenant moved out at the end of November 2023. AFTER A PROPERTY INSPECTION, I was advised to keep the property vacant to appeal to potential buyers. I agreed. Fast forward to April 2024: The buyer ended up finding mold damage in the basement. I'm now being criticized for not having had the property inspected quarterly. Ba-Jeebus! I'm at fault for MY PROPERTY MANAGER not checking the basement LITERALLY FOUR MONTHS BEFORE after the prior tenant moved out?!?! FFS! Was I supposed to say: "Hey Oz Realty, I've never been to the place, but would you please check the basement to make sure there's no mold in it?"?

I have to repeat this: I TRUSTED MY PROPERTY MANAGER TO MANAGE MY PROPERTY. When the previous tenant moved out: NO COMMENT. NOTHING. But now, I'M at fault for not realizing there was significant mold damage in the foundation.

I have spent too much time thinking about this, but if we want to keep digging, pass me a shovel. 

Actually mate, stopped being comical to me and became quite sad. Maybe some other underlying issues present not even related to this property? Look, I suggest we stop as there is enough for all to see. Otherwise, I have all the time in the world to watch you keep digging a bigger and bigger hole for yourself. 

Plus, this back and forth is only benefiting Ohio Cashflow as other companies that scam people and don't care, won't have the owner like me replying with data, screenshots and facts for over 5 days now.

But it's up to you and I'm here if needed 🤷‍♂️

A recap of my reply backed with data and screenshots: Investor bought property for $65,000 and sold for $48,500 at his own will and blames us/the market for no appreciation. Current comparable sales indicate a market value of $80,000+. This can easily be seen with current MLS sales data that I showed in a post above. Criteria used was half a mile radius, less than 360 days old, same bed and bath size and similar look/style and sqft.

The property delivered 3% returns and my office manager Lonna is great, but I am not (Even tho Lonna and Engelo work side by side for 8+ years now and are 100% in sync on everything).

Investor was casually and friendly advised to build a larger portfolio in order to potentially reap a better return on investment over time (It didn't have to be with Ohio Cashflow as we NEVER talk ourselves into business).

Fast Forward To TODAY: It is INCORRECT that I don't talk to anyone a few months after selling them a property. Every investor has my direct cell phone number as every introduction call is conducted from my personal cell number. I'm a call or txt or email away. Engelo looks after intro calls, deal presentation along with strategy, portfolio building/planning. The team and the beloved Lonna look after deal coordination, rehabs and property management, etc... This is clearly stressed during the intro call. With our business being so niche and boutique and only having around 200 investors. EVERYTHING goes through me directly. Again, the team will tell me if a mosquito farted so in a way you are corresponding with your un-beloved Engelo indirectly for many moving parts of the total operation.

Engelo # 646 899 0375

Unfortunately, you turned this into a S#@% burger and still aren't taking the responsibility. You're replies are back and forth, contradicting and confusing. "I ADMITTED BEING WRONG" - "I'M STILL IN THE WRONG"? (Questioning if you are).

Which one is it?

Unlike you, I will take responsibility even if I believe that it wasn't my wrong doing.

My word is my honor...

Back to our conversation: As we have already mentioned but let's take a deeper dive. Ohio Cashflow has been a boutique turnkey provider since 2014. We sell a maximum of 5 properties per month and usually turn down a lot of business due to not willing to work with investors wanting to finance. Along with doing our best to try and dodge bullets from such investors in this thread. Engelo deals with everyone directly or indirectly. So when investor say's he "Likes" Lonna, but doesn't like me. Lonna replies based on the core values and principles of the company culture which was created by the un-beloved Engelo in 2014 and tweaked over the years for the betterment of the whole 🤷‍♂️

Ohio Cashflow and Oz Realty have 7 full time employees and 8 remote workers that are "under the same roof". We dwell in a 1,500sqft office so as you can imagine. A very tight group of people that works hard and does it's best and where Engelo is usually made aware of everything and gives guidance on everything.

Screenshot from an old BP post where we turn down business due to not believing in a good fit. Not sure how we practice "False Scarcity" and "Gaslighting" as our current investor claimed in prior replies further above.

We dodged a bullet with one Kelly. But unfortunately we didn't with another Kelly.

So as you claim that Engelo Rumora uses "False Scarcity" and "Gaslighting" and even made fun of it in your prior replies. Based on the screenshot below, you are using manipulation and false pretenses by offering to send a gift to my office to "Kill us with kindness" so we "Don't F@#$ you over on the next tenant" when in fact you "aren't in love with Ohio Cashflow". I guess, I'll let Lonna know because Lonna pre-qualifies all tenants. But wait, I thought you liked her but now you think she is "F#@%ing you with tenant placement". 

WTF is going on here mate??????? 

Let's please stop this sadness...

Anyhow, I'm sorry you think in this way as Oz Realty doesn't intentionally place tenants in a property to "F@#$" investors over. If the tenant doesn't pay, we don't get paid long term and it's a loose/loose/loose for all. It really is a shame that you believed that this was going on.

Some personal insecurities maybe not related to business?

Ohio Cashflow Purchase $33,000

Rehab Cost $16,000

Profit $15,900

We undersold the property and usually aim to make higher profits. By all means to anyone reading, feel free to do it all yourself. You don't need us... If you do decide to work with us, have piece of mind in knowing that as the owner of Ohio Cashflow my goal is to make as much profit as I possibly can on each deal while not overcapitalizing on the rehab for your future Capex benefits and by keeping the property sale price at fair market value. Price is what you pay, value is what you get. We have stood the test of time as a profitable and boutique turnkey provider. We employ great people who are paid on time and paid well. Thank you for trusting us and investing with us. Happy to be of transparent service to you 🙏

From "CENTER" field and according to 49 years of experience mate... and the most comments and likes out of 2M+ Bigger Pockets subscribers...

Honestly mate, it really stopped being comical and turned sad. Let's please stop for your sake 🙏

Again, I can do this all day as it's good for business. If need be, I can get Lonna and Dominique to chip in also so we can have a keyboard cowboy party.

I owned real estate in Japan and have known the culture very well and the honor.

Do you think this back and forth between us is honorable?

There is enough for all to see and decide.

Let's let it go and focus on moving forward.

But again, I'll keep dancing if you keep singing.

Also, you keep mentioning the $800 water bill. Can I get Lonna to pay that back to you? It will be out of my personal pocket but I will tell her to tell you it was from her personal pocket lol

Happy to cover for the missed mold stuff also I guess even tho if a property is vacant and getting ready to be sold, our property management company doesn't set up camp at the property until sold. Doing minor repairs and upkeep and "get ready" to list and sell are up to you and the realtor. Or instruct us and we will assist.

I'm sure you have Lonna's email address and the team is following the thread in disbelief anyway. Feel free to reach out and we will compensate financially to soften some of the unfortunate looses you have incurred.

I have a big heart mate and give more away than anyone will every know. Probably would have no issues putting my hand in my pocket and giving you the $15,800 you claim that you have lost at my doing. The only reason I won't because then others reading would take advantage of me in the same way like some are trying to now because they saw that from time to time we buy back a property from an investor that we want to get out of our lives.

God Bless you mate 🙏

ps. This is what it looks like when an investors buys with cash, builds a larger portfolio, takes responsibility and holds long term

 Dude, if you're willing to compensate my losses, I will HAPPILY sing your, Ohio Cashflow, and Oz Realty's praises, and update my reviews to express my gratitude and appreciation for you doing something that generous. 

I'd rather not keep going at this, but like you, I can.

Until tomorrow. Goodnight from Japan.

 @Kelly Farmer  As a sign of good faith I would be willing to pay your $800 water bill that was mistakenly put into your tenants name by the City (not my team), in addition to that we will recoup you $800 for the mold that the inspector discovered in the basement of your 99yr old property. 

I'm afraid I can't cover the losses resulting from you grossly underselling your property... It's a lesson you'll need to absorb in your journey to becoming a more astute investor. A lesson i've personally paid many times along my journey, and I'm sure these other guys in this chain have some brutal stories they could share as well....  ( perhaps that would be an interesting new thread to start)

As for my offer, I'd appreciate it if you retracted the slanderous comments aimed at my company, and my partner... Let's part ways on decent terms, wishing each other success in our future endeavors.

 Dominique,

Thank you for your reply and I genuinely appreciate your offer to recoup some of my losses. Unfortunately, I can't accept the word "slanderous" because it means I spoke falsely. I did not. I recounted my experience with Ohio Cashflow and Oz Realty. That's all.

Maybe I sold the property for a couple thousand dollars cheaper than I should have, but my experience that I'll detail, will show otherwise. So Engelo's recent suggestion that, "Current comparable sales indicate a market value of $80,000+." is beyond ridiculous. It's "grossly" absurd.

I'll recount my sale experience:

I originally listed the property for sale on 7/29/2023 for the same price I purchased the property for: $65k.

I waited three weeks, but after no activity, lowered the price to $62k. I waited another month and a half....no activity, so we lowered the price to $59k.

I received my first cash offer at $50k on 9/25/2023

At the end of October 2023, the tenant moved out and I was suggested to leave the property vacant to sell as a starter home. I did that, and relisted the property at $65k on 11/13/2023. Following another period of inactivity, on 1/5/2024 I was finally told by Lauren, Oz Realty Licensed Real Estate Agent, that:

"Hello Hope is well. I know the holidays have passed but I am thinking a few things. I believe the home is being marketed for rent which at this point I believe it should be. We gave the vacant home our best try but seems no one was ready to purchase. Also wanted to let you know that I think the price may still be to high. My best suggestion is to ask office for a rent increase of at least $50 a month and then try to sell tenanted. I dont think it will sell over 50K You can choose to hold the home and collect rent and we can try again if or when the market changes or we can keep reducing the price til we get a hit. In reality I believe this is all we can do.
The market when you purchased was a sellers market and right now it is not a sellers market and I know that this must be frustrating, as I have other sellers going through same issues Let me know how you would like to proceed.

Lauren"

I don't want to belittle the point that from day 1 of trying to sell the property, Oz Realty introduced me to Lauren, Oz Realty Licensed Real Estate Agent. "Oz Realty Licensed Real Estate Agent" IS WRITTEN IN THE SIGNATURE OF THE EMAIL.

So all of this talk that I "grossly undersold" the property just isn't true. Lauren, Oz Realty Licensed Real Estate Agent, advised me to do so. In fact, she, as Oz Realty Licensed Real Estate Agent, told me that I should accept the buyer's repair company carry out the $2500 repairs.

Again, Lauren, Oz Realty Licensed Real Estate Agent.

(Oh, and Engelo's comment about Japan and honor was fun to read. Japan and Japanese people are not like what the movies portray, so the reference to honor made me laugh. And also for the record, because of the standards of service here, Japanese people ARE quite critical with the reviews they leave.)

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @James Wise:

If someone is going to cry about their ROI% on 1 rental property over a tiny 3 year window, it shows that they have fundamental lack of understanding of how the rental property business works.

When cap rate and ROI estimates are provide, that is a general indication of the how the average of properties in that asset class will perform over time.

At any tiny window with 1 small sample size you can greatly outperform and underperform. The same property is going to have wildely differing years folks. You could have a 3 year stretch where 1 property has 1 tenant and no repairs. Doesn't mean that property will continue to perform with no repairs and no turnovers.

Gotta use your noodles folks.

My fault here mate. Usually we are very good at pre-qualifying and asking the right questions to avoid such situations with investors. Looking at historical correspondence in our CRM that is 5+ years old, I can see there were warning signs that I ignored. Not blaming anyone here but definitely Ohio Cashflow wasn’t a fit. We never wanted to “discriminate” against folks only buying 1 or 2 properties but looks like we will have to. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Owning 1 or 2 properties in a tertiary market like Toledo isn’t worth the risk, hassle or return. And like my mate Zach above, the most unsatisfied investors are ones that only own 1 and have a bad run for a year or two. They get frustrated and just want to sell. Of course, Ohio Cashflow’s to blame and “scarcity sales” tactics. But hey, Lonna is awesome and Engelo is a wanker. Even tho Engelo hired Lonna and all of our people are representation of the owners core values and beliefs 🧐

All good though, we take full responsibility and always stand behind our efforts. Never running away. 

You Ohio guys (probably running similar games) can pat each other on the back all the way to the bank. It behooves you to do so. I would do it too if I were in your shoes. 

(insert random expletives to get the full Engelo gaslight)
"Yeah mate, I've seen this kind of investor before. I should have known. They just don't get it. Even though they had 3 years of sub 3% returns, and just found a $hit-ton of mold in the basement  that will probably write off most of 2024's returns as well...yeah, they just don't get it. Like you said, they'll probably have a 3-year stretch where the tenant doesn't mind the sink's hot water faucet (that we didn't think to repair) not working. (Insert hollow apology, repeat the one compliment and how it means you have some grandiose company culture cultivated by YOURS TRULY, in an attempt to reassure future investors that "this investor, [despite his ability to understand simple numbers about investment returns], just doesn't get it.)"

(Ironically, "you" or whoever is writing for "you" admitted the mold repairs SHOULD cost much more than $2,500. And just to repeat what your real estate agent told me, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation.")

Man, good on you for making the business you've created, but reading through some of the other similar negative experiences, I'm reminded that it takes a particular kind of person to do what you do: to speak to people "face to face" and deliberately misrepresent what you offer without blinking, then pat yourself on the back while backhandedly blaming your customer when they're upset that you didn't come close to delivering on what you advertised. 

I can already hear the retort. I could probably write it for you, it's that predictable: some ad hominem blaming the investor for not getting it, while saying "you just needed to buy more overpriced properties from us." (It's actually amusing.)

What you're doing is NOT a grift. I would never say that. You DO provide cashflow...Ohio Cashflow. But you're not entirely forthcoming with honest financial expectations. I mean, you can't be, or you wouldn't have a business. (Again, SOMEONE I LIKE AT YOUR BUSINESS SAID THAT TO ME.) So again, good on you. But at the end of the day, you don't care about what your customers who have lost say, because we've already paid your bills and we're out of your hair. 

One last thing occurred to me:

Is "we take full responsibility" a fart slogan you've adopted and just copy and paste to every negative review? I mean, "take responsibility" for selling you a $65k property for that 's actually worth $50k three years later? Or, "take responsibility" for delivering you a property with 3% returns despite saying the investor should expect 7% returns (on an advertised 9% return property)?
Your response: "Returns will average out higher over time. You needed to buy more." Yeah, yeah..."I get it."

Best of luck "mate."

U know sometimes you just have to take ownership of what you did what are you expecting out of a 65k house. Perfection  perfection in the build quality and condition perfect tenants.. the problem that I see is you went cheap and simply dont understand that properties at those price points are never going to be perfect they are old to older homes.. and your tenant base is basically the folks that can only afford that quality of housing so you get what you pay for.
U have to use logic and not just blame everyone for your choosing to invest in low value assets . These assets perform the exact same way in every market in the US. 

I mean just read all the threads right now on BP about syndicators having issues and investors not only getting ZERO returns but a real chance of a 100% loss.. so you did not make 9% no one guarantees your returns. And values are just an opinion at the time of an appraisal means nothing to value ..  If your going to buy these assets its UP TO YOU to have your PM and Pay your PM for quarterly inspections and then fix what is needed so you dont end up in this situation.. but of course if you did that its going to hurt your perfect calculated 9% return.

 You're right and I completely agree. This one's 100% on me. I should have been smarter. My gut was telling me not to trust Engelo, but I had some cash and offsetable capital gains on the sidelines, so thought I'd give turnkey a try. This is definitely not going to break the bank. I just wanted future turnkey investors to know what they were in store for. 

Thanks for the comment.

You have received a reply from the most reputable person in the real estate industry and the most trusted and admired Bigger Pockets contributor.

Someone that has known first hand how I operate and has played a huge part on putting my company on the map.

Someone that has no problems calling me out if/when I'm wrong.

So for all reading, I think Jay's words speak enough volume.

With your negative reviews blasted across every known Ohio Cashflow and Oz Realty review platform, it doesn't seem like you are taking responsibility so I disagree.

You are out for blood and that's fine.

You can have as much of mine as you want if it makes you "survive" and feel better.

As someone that wears his heart on his sleeve and bleeds for the business and our investors I'm happy to take 100% responsibility.

I have NEVER done what you have and would NEVER do what you have.

There are others ways to resolve such matters.

You could have approached me privately but "No".

You waited to sell the property and the day it sold you went on this rampage...

Reading our correspondence over my gut was telling me the same to not work with you.

Below are some of your comments from a few years ago.

It's such a shame it has come to this.

This conversation becomes more and more absurd as it continues: I lost $15,800 buying a property from you. I admitted being wrong buying one of your properties. I don't know any other way to "take responsibility" beyond eating that $hit burger. I wrote a review about my experience with your business. Hell, I paid $15,800 to be able to write it and I'm still in the wrong?

A recap of my review: "I bought the property for $65k. It was worth $50k (three years later, so don't expect appreciation). It's turnkey, but there will be a lot of repairs beyond the initial agreed upon improvements. Lonna (the property manger) was great. The place delivered 3% returns. There will be tenant turnover, which will eat into returns."

Fast forward to today:

Engelo: "I have NEVER done what you have and would NEVER do what you have. There are others ways to resolve such matters. You could have approached me privately but "No"."

Me: Literally ALL of "our" (YOU don't talk to anyone a few months after selling them a property) correspondence was private. Was I supposed to ask? "Hey, would you pay me $15,800 to recoup the losses for the $hit burger I bought three years ago?" Instead, I asked:

"Lonna,

Hello. I hope you are well.

After a year since my last email regarding potentially selling the property, I'm again considering it. I'm not sure that I want to increase the number of properties I own (which you said would increase my chances of return), so I was wondering what my options were. I think Ohio Cashflow and what you guys offer are both great, but again, if I'm not trying to build a more significant portfolio of properties, it might make sense for me to pursue other investment options.

Well I look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you.

Kelly Farmer"

The response:

"In my opinion you have a few options to consider:
1) List on the MLS (Not us but another agent that we can refer) (A commission will need to be paid to the agent and we have no idea of how long it will take to sell. Financing, appraisals and building inspections from prospect buyers could delay the closing quite a bit. The property can be listed through our "in-house" and trusted agent. We can request a discount on the listing fee and it will be most likely 1-3% and you will still need to pay the buyers agent fee. In Toledo properties take longer to sell than any other market. Toledo is known as a “Buy & Hold” market and not one where quick gains are made)
2) We can attempt selling through a sales channel (A commission will need to get paid to the sales channel and we believe some properties could sell quicker than the MLS. Some might sit for longer so please keep this in mind also. We are at the mercy of the sales channel. Ohio Cashflow makes no commission and the sales channels make anywhere from $7,000 - $15,000 for selling a property. The buyer would mostly likely be a cash buyer so their wouldn’t be too many hoops to jump through)
3) Ohio Cashflow can sell (A $15,000 commission would need to get paid to us and we also can’t guarantee how quickly we can sell as our #1 priority is selling properties that have just been rehabbed. Our livelihood depends on the volume of deals that we produce so existing deals where most of our capital is tied up are priority. The $15,000 might seem steep but when you calculate sales commissions to employees, closing commission to deal coordinator, administrative fees, marketing and the "opportunity cost" off not selling another property we own, we actually don’t make anything)
Those are pretty much the options at hand."

Back to our conversation:
Thank you for the screenshots to walk me down memory lane. For our readers, I'll remind them that YOU (Engelo) weren't dealing with me at that point so you have no idea about ANYTHING that was going on until you looked up our emails in the last three days. I wrote (per your screenshot):

"Engelo,
Hey, long time no talk. First I just wanted to thank you for 2021. I've been really happy with Ohio Cashflow and my investment with you guys."

As a mental exercise, can you imagine the perspective of an investor that bought a property from you just 8 months prior to that email, had his FIRST TENANT miss payments, lie about making payments, make partial payments, then ultimately skip out on four months rent? AND THEN...as part of the process, have to pay legal fees to evict the tenant? Should I say it again...MY FIRST TENANT?!?!

I can say this with 100% honesty from my heart of hearts, I was thinking, "F@@@@ck!! F@@@@ck!! What did I get myself into? Maybe if I kill them with kindness they won't f@ck me over with the next tenant."
So please don't have any misconceptions that I was in love with Ohio Cashflow and it (for some unknown reason) went sour. I thought "f@ck" from month five or six, but was hoping that being nice would turn a $hitburger into a $hit-cheeseburger.

Oh, and then shortly thereafter I got saddled with $800+ water bills IN THE FIRST YEAR AS AN OHIO CASHFLOW INVESTOR. Dude, this is comical. I'm bad. You're good. Thank you for repeatedly reminding me that "I just needed to buy more properties."      


Dude, I was a customer of yours. I bought a property from you. You bought it for $33k, put $10k (maybe?) into it  and sold it to me for $65k. Fine. I signed up for that. You advertised 9% cap rates, said to expect 7% (I understood and agreed to that), and it delivered 3% over three years.

And now, from left field, I have a different real estate investor weighing in. I only mention this because according to you he's "the most reputable person in the real estate industry and the most trusted and admired Bigger Pockets contributor":

"its up to the owner to have them inspected quarterly and remedy wet spots or mold at the first sign.. Not wait two years then be shocked and blame the guy who sold you the house."

A summary of my relationship with Ohio Cashflow: I live in Japan. I bought a turnkey property from Ohio Cashflow for cashflow in 2021. I had NO idea about the actual condition of the property because I was relying on Ohio Cashflow/Oz Realty to take care of it. My last tenant moved out at the end of November 2023. AFTER A PROPERTY INSPECTION, I was advised to keep the property vacant to appeal to potential buyers. I agreed. Fast forward to April 2024: The buyer ended up finding mold damage in the basement. I'm now being criticized for not having had the property inspected quarterly. Ba-Jeebus! I'm at fault for MY PROPERTY MANAGER not checking the basement LITERALLY FOUR MONTHS BEFORE after the prior tenant moved out?!?! FFS! Was I supposed to say: "Hey Oz Realty, I've never been to the place, but would you please check the basement to make sure there's no mold in it?"?

I have to repeat this: I TRUSTED MY PROPERTY MANAGER TO MANAGE MY PROPERTY. When the previous tenant moved out: NO COMMENT. NOTHING. But now, I'M at fault for not realizing there was significant mold damage in the foundation.

I have spent too much time thinking about this, but if we want to keep digging, pass me a shovel. 

Actually mate, stopped being comical to me and became quite sad. Maybe some other underlying issues present not even related to this property? Look, I suggest we stop as there is enough for all to see. Otherwise, I have all the time in the world to watch you keep digging a bigger and bigger hole for yourself. 

Plus, this back and forth is only benefiting Ohio Cashflow as other companies that scam people and don't care, won't have the owner like me replying with data, screenshots and facts for over 5 days now.

But it's up to you and I'm here if needed 🤷‍♂️

A recap of my reply backed with data and screenshots: Investor bought property for $65,000 and sold for $48,500 at his own will and blames us/the market for no appreciation. Current comparable sales indicate a market value of $80,000+. This can easily be seen with current MLS sales data that I showed in a post above. Criteria used was half a mile radius, less than 360 days old, same bed and bath size and similar look/style and sqft.

The property delivered 3% returns and my office manager Lonna is great, but I am not (Even tho Lonna and Engelo work side by side for 8+ years now and are 100% in sync on everything).

Investor was casually and friendly advised to build a larger portfolio in order to potentially reap a better return on investment over time (It didn't have to be with Ohio Cashflow as we NEVER talk ourselves into business).

Fast Forward To TODAY: It is INCORRECT that I don't talk to anyone a few months after selling them a property. Every investor has my direct cell phone number as every introduction call is conducted from my personal cell number. I'm a call or txt or email away. Engelo looks after intro calls, deal presentation along with strategy, portfolio building/planning. The team and the beloved Lonna look after deal coordination, rehabs and property management, etc... This is clearly stressed during the intro call. With our business being so niche and boutique and only having around 200 investors. EVERYTHING goes through me directly. Again, the team will tell me if a mosquito farted so in a way you are corresponding with your un-beloved Engelo indirectly for many moving parts of the total operation.

Engelo # 646 899 0375

Unfortunately, you turned this into a S#@% burger and still aren't taking the responsibility. You're replies are back and forth, contradicting and confusing. "I ADMITTED BEING WRONG" - "I'M STILL IN THE WRONG"? (Questioning if you are).

Which one is it?

Unlike you, I will take responsibility even if I believe that it wasn't my wrong doing.

My word is my honor...

Back to our conversation: As we have already mentioned but let's take a deeper dive. Ohio Cashflow has been a boutique turnkey provider since 2014. We sell a maximum of 5 properties per month and usually turn down a lot of business due to not willing to work with investors wanting to finance. Along with doing our best to try and dodge bullets from such investors in this thread. Engelo deals with everyone directly or indirectly. So when investor say's he "Likes" Lonna, but doesn't like me. Lonna replies based on the core values and principles of the company culture which was created by the un-beloved Engelo in 2014 and tweaked over the years for the betterment of the whole 🤷‍♂️

Ohio Cashflow and Oz Realty have 7 full time employees and 8 remote workers that are "under the same roof". We dwell in a 1,500sqft office so as you can imagine. A very tight group of people that works hard and does it's best and where Engelo is usually made aware of everything and gives guidance on everything.

Screenshot from an old BP post where we turn down business due to not believing in a good fit. Not sure how we practice "False Scarcity" and "Gaslighting" as our current investor claimed in prior replies further above.

We dodged a bullet with one Kelly. But unfortunately we didn't with another Kelly.

So as you claim that Engelo Rumora uses "False Scarcity" and "Gaslighting" and even made fun of it in your prior replies. Based on the screenshot below, you are using manipulation and false pretenses by offering to send a gift to my office to "Kill us with kindness" so we "Don't F@#$ you over on the next tenant" when in fact you "aren't in love with Ohio Cashflow". I guess, I'll let Lonna know because Lonna pre-qualifies all tenants. But wait, I thought you liked her but now you think she is "F#@%ing you with tenant placement". 

WTF is going on here mate??????? 

Let's please stop this sadness...

Anyhow, I'm sorry you think in this way as Oz Realty doesn't intentionally place tenants in a property to "F@#$" investors over. If the tenant doesn't pay, we don't get paid long term and it's a loose/loose/loose for all. It really is a shame that you believed that this was going on.

Some personal insecurities maybe not related to business?

Ohio Cashflow Purchase $33,000

Rehab Cost $16,000

Profit $15,900

We undersold the property and usually aim to make higher profits. By all means to anyone reading, feel free to do it all yourself. You don't need us... If you do decide to work with us, have piece of mind in knowing that as the owner of Ohio Cashflow my goal is to make as much profit as I possibly can on each deal while not overcapitalizing on the rehab for your future Capex benefits and by keeping the property sale price at fair market value. Price is what you pay, value is what you get. We have stood the test of time as a profitable and boutique turnkey provider. We employ great people who are paid on time and paid well. Thank you for trusting us and investing with us. Happy to be of transparent service to you 🙏

From "CENTER" field and according to 49 years of experience mate... and the most comments and likes out of 2M+ Bigger Pockets subscribers...

Honestly mate, it really stopped being comical and turned sad. Let's please stop for your sake 🙏

Again, I can do this all day as it's good for business. If need be, I can get Lonna and Dominique to chip in also so we can have a keyboard cowboy party.

I owned real estate in Japan and have known the culture very well and the honor.

Do you think this back and forth between us is honorable?

There is enough for all to see and decide.

Let's let it go and focus on moving forward.

But again, I'll keep dancing if you keep singing.

Also, you keep mentioning the $800 water bill. Can I get Lonna to pay that back to you? It will be out of my personal pocket but I will tell her to tell you it was from her personal pocket lol

Happy to cover for the missed mold stuff also I guess even tho if a property is vacant and getting ready to be sold, our property management company doesn't set up camp at the property until sold. Doing minor repairs and upkeep and "get ready" to list and sell are up to you and the realtor. Or instruct us and we will assist.

I'm sure you have Lonna's email address and the team is following the thread in disbelief anyway. Feel free to reach out and we will compensate financially to soften some of the unfortunate looses you have incurred.

I have a big heart mate and give more away than anyone will every know. Probably would have no issues putting my hand in my pocket and giving you the $15,800 you claim that you have lost at my doing. The only reason I won't because then others reading would take advantage of me in the same way like some are trying to now because they saw that from time to time we buy back a property from an investor that we want to get out of our lives.

God Bless you mate 🙏

ps. This is what it looks like when an investors buys with cash, builds a larger portfolio, takes responsibility and holds long term

 Dude, if you're willing to compensate my losses, I will HAPPILY sing your, Ohio Cashflow, and Oz Realty's praises, and update my reviews to express my gratitude and appreciation for you doing something that generous. 

I'd rather not keep going at this, but like you, I can.

Until tomorrow. Goodnight from Japan.

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @James Wise:

If someone is going to cry about their ROI% on 1 rental property over a tiny 3 year window, it shows that they have fundamental lack of understanding of how the rental property business works.

When cap rate and ROI estimates are provide, that is a general indication of the how the average of properties in that asset class will perform over time.

At any tiny window with 1 small sample size you can greatly outperform and underperform. The same property is going to have wildely differing years folks. You could have a 3 year stretch where 1 property has 1 tenant and no repairs. Doesn't mean that property will continue to perform with no repairs and no turnovers.

Gotta use your noodles folks.

My fault here mate. Usually we are very good at pre-qualifying and asking the right questions to avoid such situations with investors. Looking at historical correspondence in our CRM that is 5+ years old, I can see there were warning signs that I ignored. Not blaming anyone here but definitely Ohio Cashflow wasn’t a fit. We never wanted to “discriminate” against folks only buying 1 or 2 properties but looks like we will have to. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Owning 1 or 2 properties in a tertiary market like Toledo isn’t worth the risk, hassle or return. And like my mate Zach above, the most unsatisfied investors are ones that only own 1 and have a bad run for a year or two. They get frustrated and just want to sell. Of course, Ohio Cashflow’s to blame and “scarcity sales” tactics. But hey, Lonna is awesome and Engelo is a wanker. Even tho Engelo hired Lonna and all of our people are representation of the owners core values and beliefs 🧐

All good though, we take full responsibility and always stand behind our efforts. Never running away. 

You Ohio guys (probably running similar games) can pat each other on the back all the way to the bank. It behooves you to do so. I would do it too if I were in your shoes. 

(insert random expletives to get the full Engelo gaslight)
"Yeah mate, I've seen this kind of investor before. I should have known. They just don't get it. Even though they had 3 years of sub 3% returns, and just found a $hit-ton of mold in the basement  that will probably write off most of 2024's returns as well...yeah, they just don't get it. Like you said, they'll probably have a 3-year stretch where the tenant doesn't mind the sink's hot water faucet (that we didn't think to repair) not working. (Insert hollow apology, repeat the one compliment and how it means you have some grandiose company culture cultivated by YOURS TRULY, in an attempt to reassure future investors that "this investor, [despite his ability to understand simple numbers about investment returns], just doesn't get it.)"

(Ironically, "you" or whoever is writing for "you" admitted the mold repairs SHOULD cost much more than $2,500. And just to repeat what your real estate agent told me, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation.")

Man, good on you for making the business you've created, but reading through some of the other similar negative experiences, I'm reminded that it takes a particular kind of person to do what you do: to speak to people "face to face" and deliberately misrepresent what you offer without blinking, then pat yourself on the back while backhandedly blaming your customer when they're upset that you didn't come close to delivering on what you advertised. 

I can already hear the retort. I could probably write it for you, it's that predictable: some ad hominem blaming the investor for not getting it, while saying "you just needed to buy more overpriced properties from us." (It's actually amusing.)

What you're doing is NOT a grift. I would never say that. You DO provide cashflow...Ohio Cashflow. But you're not entirely forthcoming with honest financial expectations. I mean, you can't be, or you wouldn't have a business. (Again, SOMEONE I LIKE AT YOUR BUSINESS SAID THAT TO ME.) So again, good on you. But at the end of the day, you don't care about what your customers who have lost say, because we've already paid your bills and we're out of your hair. 

One last thing occurred to me:

Is "we take full responsibility" a fart slogan you've adopted and just copy and paste to every negative review? I mean, "take responsibility" for selling you a $65k property for that 's actually worth $50k three years later? Or, "take responsibility" for delivering you a property with 3% returns despite saying the investor should expect 7% returns (on an advertised 9% return property)?
Your response: "Returns will average out higher over time. You needed to buy more." Yeah, yeah..."I get it."

Best of luck "mate."

U know sometimes you just have to take ownership of what you did what are you expecting out of a 65k house. Perfection  perfection in the build quality and condition perfect tenants.. the problem that I see is you went cheap and simply dont understand that properties at those price points are never going to be perfect they are old to older homes.. and your tenant base is basically the folks that can only afford that quality of housing so you get what you pay for.
U have to use logic and not just blame everyone for your choosing to invest in low value assets . These assets perform the exact same way in every market in the US. 

I mean just read all the threads right now on BP about syndicators having issues and investors not only getting ZERO returns but a real chance of a 100% loss.. so you did not make 9% no one guarantees your returns. And values are just an opinion at the time of an appraisal means nothing to value ..  If your going to buy these assets its UP TO YOU to have your PM and Pay your PM for quarterly inspections and then fix what is needed so you dont end up in this situation.. but of course if you did that its going to hurt your perfect calculated 9% return.

 You're right and I completely agree. This one's 100% on me. I should have been smarter. My gut was telling me not to trust Engelo, but I had some cash and offsetable capital gains on the sidelines, so thought I'd give turnkey a try. This is definitely not going to break the bank. I just wanted future turnkey investors to know what they were in store for. 

Thanks for the comment.

You have received a reply from the most reputable person in the real estate industry and the most trusted and admired Bigger Pockets contributor.

Someone that has known first hand how I operate and has played a huge part on putting my company on the map.

Someone that has no problems calling me out if/when I'm wrong.

So for all reading, I think Jay's words speak enough volume.

With your negative reviews blasted across every known Ohio Cashflow and Oz Realty review platform, it doesn't seem like you are taking responsibility so I disagree.

You are out for blood and that's fine.

You can have as much of mine as you want if it makes you "survive" and feel better.

As someone that wears his heart on his sleeve and bleeds for the business and our investors I'm happy to take 100% responsibility.

I have NEVER done what you have and would NEVER do what you have.

There are others ways to resolve such matters.

You could have approached me privately but "No".

You waited to sell the property and the day it sold you went on this rampage...

Reading our correspondence over my gut was telling me the same to not work with you.

Below are some of your comments from a few years ago.

It's such a shame it has come to this.

This conversation becomes more and more absurd as it continues: I lost $15,800 buying a property from you. I admitted being wrong buying one of your properties. I don't know any other way to "take responsibility" beyond eating that $hit burger. I wrote a review about my experience with your business. Hell, I paid $15,800 to be able to write it and I'm still in the wrong?

A recap of my review: "I bought the property for $65k. It was worth $50k (three years later, so don't expect appreciation). It's turnkey, but there will be a lot of repairs beyond the initial agreed upon improvements. Lonna (the property manger) was great. The place delivered 3% returns. There will be tenant turnover, which will eat into returns."

Fast forward to today:

Engelo: "I have NEVER done what you have and would NEVER do what you have. There are others ways to resolve such matters. You could have approached me privately but "No"."

Me: Literally ALL of "our" (YOU don't talk to anyone a few months after selling them a property) correspondence was private. Was I supposed to ask? "Hey, would you pay me $15,800 to recoup the losses for the $hit burger I bought three years ago?" Instead, I asked:

"Lonna,

Hello. I hope you are well.

After a year since my last email regarding potentially selling the property, I'm again considering it. I'm not sure that I want to increase the number of properties I own (which you said would increase my chances of return), so I was wondering what my options were. I think Ohio Cashflow and what you guys offer are both great, but again, if I'm not trying to build a more significant portfolio of properties, it might make sense for me to pursue other investment options.

Well I look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you.

Kelly Farmer"

The response:

"In my opinion you have a few options to consider:
1) List on the MLS (Not us but another agent that we can refer) (A commission will need to be paid to the agent and we have no idea of how long it will take to sell. Financing, appraisals and building inspections from prospect buyers could delay the closing quite a bit. The property can be listed through our "in-house" and trusted agent. We can request a discount on the listing fee and it will be most likely 1-3% and you will still need to pay the buyers agent fee. In Toledo properties take longer to sell than any other market. Toledo is known as a “Buy & Hold” market and not one where quick gains are made)
2) We can attempt selling through a sales channel (A commission will need to get paid to the sales channel and we believe some properties could sell quicker than the MLS. Some might sit for longer so please keep this in mind also. We are at the mercy of the sales channel. Ohio Cashflow makes no commission and the sales channels make anywhere from $7,000 - $15,000 for selling a property. The buyer would mostly likely be a cash buyer so their wouldn’t be too many hoops to jump through)
3) Ohio Cashflow can sell (A $15,000 commission would need to get paid to us and we also can’t guarantee how quickly we can sell as our #1 priority is selling properties that have just been rehabbed. Our livelihood depends on the volume of deals that we produce so existing deals where most of our capital is tied up are priority. The $15,000 might seem steep but when you calculate sales commissions to employees, closing commission to deal coordinator, administrative fees, marketing and the "opportunity cost" off not selling another property we own, we actually don’t make anything)
Those are pretty much the options at hand."

Back to our conversation:
Thank you for the screenshots to walk me down memory lane. For our readers, I'll remind them that YOU (Engelo) weren't dealing with me at that point so you have no idea about ANYTHING that was going on until you looked up our emails in the last three days. I wrote (per your screenshot):

"Engelo,
Hey, long time no talk. First I just wanted to thank you for 2021. I've been really happy with Ohio Cashflow and my investment with you guys."

As a mental exercise, can you imagine the perspective of an investor that bought a property from you just 8 months prior to that email, had his FIRST TENANT miss payments, lie about making payments, make partial payments, then ultimately skip out on four months rent? AND THEN...as part of the process, have to pay legal fees to evict the tenant? Should I say it again...MY FIRST TENANT?!?!

I can say this with 100% honesty from my heart of hearts, I was thinking, "F@@@@ck!! F@@@@ck!! What did I get myself into? Maybe if I kill them with kindness they won't f@ck me over with the next tenant."
So please don't have any misconceptions that I was in love with Ohio Cashflow and it (for some unknown reason) went sour. I thought "f@ck" from month five or six, but was hoping that being nice would turn a $hitburger into a $hit-cheeseburger.

Oh, and then shortly thereafter I got saddled with $800+ water bills IN THE FIRST YEAR AS AN OHIO CASHFLOW INVESTOR. Dude, this is comical. I'm bad. You're good. Thank you for repeatedly reminding me that "I just needed to buy more properties."      


Dude, I was a customer of yours. I bought a property from you. You bought it for $33k, put $10k (maybe?) into it  and sold it to me for $65k. Fine. I signed up for that. You advertised 9% cap rates, said to expect 7% (I understood and agreed to that), and it delivered 3% over three years.

And now, from left field, I have a different real estate investor weighing in. I only mention this because according to you he's "the most reputable person in the real estate industry and the most trusted and admired Bigger Pockets contributor":

"its up to the owner to have them inspected quarterly and remedy wet spots or mold at the first sign.. Not wait two years then be shocked and blame the guy who sold you the house."

A summary of my relationship with Ohio Cashflow: I live in Japan. I bought a turnkey property from Ohio Cashflow for cashflow in 2021. I had NO idea about the actual condition of the property because I was relying on Ohio Cashflow/Oz Realty to take care of it. My last tenant moved out at the end of November 2023. AFTER A PROPERTY INSPECTION, I was advised to keep the property vacant to appeal to potential buyers. I agreed. Fast forward to April 2024: The buyer ended up finding mold damage in the basement. I'm now being criticized for not having had the property inspected quarterly. Ba-Jeebus! I'm at fault for MY PROPERTY MANAGER not checking the basement LITERALLY FOUR MONTHS BEFORE after the prior tenant moved out?!?! FFS! Was I supposed to say: "Hey Oz Realty, I've never been to the place, but would you please check the basement to make sure there's no mold in it?"?

I have to repeat this: I TRUSTED MY PROPERTY MANAGER TO MANAGE MY PROPERTY. When the previous tenant moved out: NO COMMENT. NOTHING. But now, I'M at fault for not realizing there was significant mold damage in the foundation.

I have spent too much time thinking about this, but if we want to keep digging, pass me a shovel. 

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @James Wise:

If someone is going to cry about their ROI% on 1 rental property over a tiny 3 year window, it shows that they have fundamental lack of understanding of how the rental property business works.

When cap rate and ROI estimates are provide, that is a general indication of the how the average of properties in that asset class will perform over time.

At any tiny window with 1 small sample size you can greatly outperform and underperform. The same property is going to have wildely differing years folks. You could have a 3 year stretch where 1 property has 1 tenant and no repairs. Doesn't mean that property will continue to perform with no repairs and no turnovers.

Gotta use your noodles folks.

My fault here mate. Usually we are very good at pre-qualifying and asking the right questions to avoid such situations with investors. Looking at historical correspondence in our CRM that is 5+ years old, I can see there were warning signs that I ignored. Not blaming anyone here but definitely Ohio Cashflow wasn’t a fit. We never wanted to “discriminate” against folks only buying 1 or 2 properties but looks like we will have to. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Owning 1 or 2 properties in a tertiary market like Toledo isn’t worth the risk, hassle or return. And like my mate Zach above, the most unsatisfied investors are ones that only own 1 and have a bad run for a year or two. They get frustrated and just want to sell. Of course, Ohio Cashflow’s to blame and “scarcity sales” tactics. But hey, Lonna is awesome and Engelo is a wanker. Even tho Engelo hired Lonna and all of our people are representation of the owners core values and beliefs 🧐

All good though, we take full responsibility and always stand behind our efforts. Never running away. 

You Ohio guys (probably running similar games) can pat each other on the back all the way to the bank. It behooves you to do so. I would do it too if I were in your shoes. 

(insert random expletives to get the full Engelo gaslight)
"Yeah mate, I've seen this kind of investor before. I should have known. They just don't get it. Even though they had 3 years of sub 3% returns, and just found a $hit-ton of mold in the basement  that will probably write off most of 2024's returns as well...yeah, they just don't get it. Like you said, they'll probably have a 3-year stretch where the tenant doesn't mind the sink's hot water faucet (that we didn't think to repair) not working. (Insert hollow apology, repeat the one compliment and how it means you have some grandiose company culture cultivated by YOURS TRULY, in an attempt to reassure future investors that "this investor, [despite his ability to understand simple numbers about investment returns], just doesn't get it.)"

(Ironically, "you" or whoever is writing for "you" admitted the mold repairs SHOULD cost much more than $2,500. And just to repeat what your real estate agent told me, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation.")

Man, good on you for making the business you've created, but reading through some of the other similar negative experiences, I'm reminded that it takes a particular kind of person to do what you do: to speak to people "face to face" and deliberately misrepresent what you offer without blinking, then pat yourself on the back while backhandedly blaming your customer when they're upset that you didn't come close to delivering on what you advertised. 

I can already hear the retort. I could probably write it for you, it's that predictable: some ad hominem blaming the investor for not getting it, while saying "you just needed to buy more overpriced properties from us." (It's actually amusing.)

What you're doing is NOT a grift. I would never say that. You DO provide cashflow...Ohio Cashflow. But you're not entirely forthcoming with honest financial expectations. I mean, you can't be, or you wouldn't have a business. (Again, SOMEONE I LIKE AT YOUR BUSINESS SAID THAT TO ME.) So again, good on you. But at the end of the day, you don't care about what your customers who have lost say, because we've already paid your bills and we're out of your hair. 

One last thing occurred to me:

Is "we take full responsibility" a fart slogan you've adopted and just copy and paste to every negative review? I mean, "take responsibility" for selling you a $65k property for that 's actually worth $50k three years later? Or, "take responsibility" for delivering you a property with 3% returns despite saying the investor should expect 7% returns (on an advertised 9% return property)?
Your response: "Returns will average out higher over time. You needed to buy more." Yeah, yeah..."I get it."

Best of luck "mate."

Hi Kelly,

I'll try to be short and sweet here but your comment is confusing.

Not sure if you are story telling or writing to yourself or?

The "false scarcity" and "gaslighting" stuff must come from some Instagram guru talking about deep emotional intelligence or relationship problems advice. Am I right?

Reading through our prior email correspondence, the depth we went through in answering all of your questions, the information that we provided, the words of private praise to "gaslighting" and "false scarcity" Engelo via email and public praise to Lonna (Whom "gaslighting" Engelo employs by the way).

Yes indeed, it takes a particular person to post how you post.

I sleep in peace because I know my truth and the truth of the matter. You can feel free to believe in whatever you want to believe in. That, I can't change.

I don't blame the customer and am simply defending my reputation like I always have. We have bought back properties from unsatisfied customers over the past 10 years. We have eaten hundreds of thousands of dollars in repair costs for no wrongdoing of our own. We have helped customers sell properties for no disposition fee and we have even given money back to customers that have lost it.

Ohio Cashflow and I take responsibility for many things but we can't take responsibility for you selling the property for as cheap as you did. 

I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of me and my company. I wish it was different. I'm also sorry that we let you down mate.

God Bless 🙏

Engelo,

Thank you for the kind words, and I'm glad I can help out a fellow small business owner.

For the record, I grew up in a lower-middle class family and I can confidently say that no one would accuse me of having grown up with a silver spoon in my mouth. (My grandfather built his first house with his own hands; my dad, as a kid, straightening the bent nails that my grandfather mis-struck so we wouldn't lose money.) Oh, and I love Indian curry, too. I guess your Indian neighbors comment (juxtaposed to me growing up with a silver spoon) is somehow supposed to imply you're more "of the people" than I am. Either way, maybe we have one thing in common after all.

I don't carry any ill will towards you or your business, and also don't want to damage your business. My purpose for writing this review was to detail my one, personal experience to help future investors understand what they might expect from Ohio Cashflow, and more broadly turnkey. I could have saved money had I had my own review to read.

At this point, I only delve into the minutia of this argument so that the facts, as I know them, are detailed.

1. I've already stated my opinion that 4% average returns of a larger portfolio still equal 4% average returns, so we can go back-and-forth at this until we're blue in the face. You can tell me larger portfolios have higher returns, but it's just really hard to imagine given the age and condition of the properties Ohio Cashflow investors are dealing with.

3. The "I would have bought it at that price because it was sold very cheap." is disingenuous, no matter how you look at it. From an email:

"Ohio Cashflow can sell (A $15,000 commission would need to get paid to us and we also can’t guarantee how quickly we can sell as our #1 priority is selling properties that have just been rehabbed. Our livelihood depends on the volume of deals that we produce so existing deals where most of our capital is tied up are priority. The $15,000 might seem steep but when you calculate sales commissions to employees, closing commission to deal coordinator, administrative fees, marketing and the "opportunity cost" off not selling another property we own, we actually don’t make anything)"

6. "always" is not correct. From emails:

"It also looks like the tenant some how was able to put it in his name as this bill was a final bill. I’m not sure how he was able to as the water company goes by AERIS to see whom the owner is. So you will not have an issue with water bills while this tenant is in the property it is in his name."

"An actual read was only done because the tenant had the water put in his name."

"Now that it is in the tenants name the water bills won’t come to the office they will go directly to him, he will be responsible for have the bill paid in full and this would not come back to you since the bill is not in your name."

To your point, and I concede that maybe my case was an anomaly:
"Yes. But not sure how, normally it does have to be in the owners name."

7. A person in business that writes "I couldn't care less if someone buys or doesn't." is also disingenuous. If you don't like selling, fine. I don't know you. But being in business and claiming you don't care if people support you or your business...well, maybe you're independently wealthy at this point and don't have to care. In that case, good on you.

8. I don't know if mold can ruin a foundation, but that's what your real estate agent told me. I'll attach a photo per your request.

In conclusion: I appreciate you taking the time to reply. It's good for future investors to read both sides. Lonna IS fantastic. I don't begrudge you or your business, and wish you the best moving forward.

(Oh, and I was using "thank god" as an expression to convey relief that this investment is done and in the books.)

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @James Wise:

If someone is going to cry about their ROI% on 1 rental property over a tiny 3 year window, it shows that they have fundamental lack of understanding of how the rental property business works.

When cap rate and ROI estimates are provide, that is a general indication of the how the average of properties in that asset class will perform over time.

At any tiny window with 1 small sample size you can greatly outperform and underperform. The same property is going to have wildely differing years folks. You could have a 3 year stretch where 1 property has 1 tenant and no repairs. Doesn't mean that property will continue to perform with no repairs and no turnovers.

Gotta use your noodles folks.

My fault here mate. Usually we are very good at pre-qualifying and asking the right questions to avoid such situations with investors. Looking at historical correspondence in our CRM that is 5+ years old, I can see there were warning signs that I ignored. Not blaming anyone here but definitely Ohio Cashflow wasn’t a fit. We never wanted to “discriminate” against folks only buying 1 or 2 properties but looks like we will have to. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Owning 1 or 2 properties in a tertiary market like Toledo isn’t worth the risk, hassle or return. And like my mate Zach above, the most unsatisfied investors are ones that only own 1 and have a bad run for a year or two. They get frustrated and just want to sell. Of course, Ohio Cashflow’s to blame and “scarcity sales” tactics. But hey, Lonna is awesome and Engelo is a wanker. Even tho Engelo hired Lonna and all of our people are representation of the owners core values and beliefs 🧐

All good though, we take full responsibility and always stand behind our efforts. Never running away. 

You Ohio guys (probably running similar games) can pat each other on the back all the way to the bank. It behooves you to do so. I would do it too if I were in your shoes. 

(insert random expletives to get the full Engelo gaslight)
"Yeah mate, I've seen this kind of investor before. I should have known. They just don't get it. Even though they had 3 years of sub 3% returns, and just found a $hit-ton of mold in the basement  that will probably write off most of 2024's returns as well...yeah, they just don't get it. Like you said, they'll probably have a 3-year stretch where the tenant doesn't mind the sink's hot water faucet (that we didn't think to repair) not working. (Insert hollow apology, repeat the one compliment and how it means you have some grandiose company culture cultivated by YOURS TRULY, in an attempt to reassure future investors that "this investor, [despite his ability to understand simple numbers about investment returns], just doesn't get it.)"

(Ironically, "you" or whoever is writing for "you" admitted the mold repairs SHOULD cost much more than $2,500. And just to repeat what your real estate agent told me, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation.")

Man, good on you for making the business you've created, but reading through some of the other similar negative experiences, I'm reminded that it takes a particular kind of person to do what you do: to speak to people "face to face" and deliberately misrepresent what you offer without blinking, then pat yourself on the back while backhandedly blaming your customer when they're upset that you didn't come close to delivering on what you advertised. 

I can already hear the retort. I could probably write it for you, it's that predictable: some ad hominem blaming the investor for not getting it, while saying "you just needed to buy more overpriced properties from us." (It's actually amusing.)

What you're doing is NOT a grift. I would never say that. You DO provide cashflow...Ohio Cashflow. But you're not entirely forthcoming with honest financial expectations. I mean, you can't be, or you wouldn't have a business. (Again, SOMEONE I LIKE AT YOUR BUSINESS SAID THAT TO ME.) So again, good on you. But at the end of the day, you don't care about what your customers who have lost say, because we've already paid your bills and we're out of your hair. 

One last thing occurred to me:

Is "we take full responsibility" a fart slogan you've adopted and just copy and paste to every negative review? I mean, "take responsibility" for selling you a $65k property for that 's actually worth $50k three years later? Or, "take responsibility" for delivering you a property with 3% returns despite saying the investor should expect 7% returns (on an advertised 9% return property)?
Your response: "Returns will average out higher over time. You needed to buy more." Yeah, yeah..."I get it."

Best of luck "mate."

U know sometimes you just have to take ownership of what you did what are you expecting out of a 65k house. Perfection  perfection in the build quality and condition perfect tenants.. the problem that I see is you went cheap and simply dont understand that properties at those price points are never going to be perfect they are old to older homes.. and your tenant base is basically the folks that can only afford that quality of housing so you get what you pay for.
U have to use logic and not just blame everyone for your choosing to invest in low value assets . These assets perform the exact same way in every market in the US. 

I mean just read all the threads right now on BP about syndicators having issues and investors not only getting ZERO returns but a real chance of a 100% loss.. so you did not make 9% no one guarantees your returns. And values are just an opinion at the time of an appraisal means nothing to value ..  If your going to buy these assets its UP TO YOU to have your PM and Pay your PM for quarterly inspections and then fix what is needed so you dont end up in this situation.. but of course if you did that its going to hurt your perfect calculated 9% return.

 You're right and I completely agree. This one's 100% on me. I should have been smarter. My gut was telling me not to trust Engelo, but I had some cash and offsetable capital gains on the sidelines, so thought I'd give turnkey a try. This is definitely not going to break the bank. I just wanted future turnkey investors to know what they were in store for. 

Thanks for the comment.

Quote from @Michael P.:

Quote from @Kelly Farmer:

First, I appreciate someone taking the time to respond, even if much of the information is factually inaccurate. 

My in-line responses:

1. I will agree. He did say that better returns come with holding a portfolio of more properties. That said, what is the average return on 10 properties averaging 3-4%? Answer: 3-4%. Considering how old and run down the property actually was, combined with how little work Ohio Cashflow did at the time of purchase, the required repairs will undoubtedly just keep coming. I can't help but laugh as I write this. I mean, THE HOT WATER FAUCET IN THE BATHROOM SINK DIDN'T WORK! And the tenant during winter: "I can't sleep at night because every time I turn on the heater, rat urine smell comes out of the vents." Poor guy! Thank god we had it fixed.

3. If "The reason why you kept getting “marketing emails” with higher priced properties is because the market has significantly increased in value since you purchased." was true, why were all the initial offers on the property in the $51k range, roughly $14k less that what I purchased the property for? Or, why was the official appraisal at $50k? The truth is: had there been any appreciation in the area, comps in the area would have placed my property much closer to the $65k I paid for it. The truth is: turnkey HAS to sell properties way over their real values to stay in business. (Someone I like at Oz Realty actually said that.)

5. Well if she's not Ohio Cashflow's agent, I wonder why she told me her desk was across from Lonnna's?

6. This may be generally true, but my second tenant's water bill was in his name. I can concede this may have been done at error. But what is undeniably true is that I was hit with about $800 in water bills.

7. I get that your business is booming, and you probably do turn away clients. That doesn't mean Engelo doesn't use false scarcity as a sales technique. Those two facts are not incompatible. 

8. I'm not sure if the PICTURES of mold in the basement were manipulation to get the property cheaper. The (incompetent) real estate agent actually said, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation."

My final word: thank you again for the reply. Tell Lonna thank you. She's fantastic. Thank god I'm out of the property. Thank god for capital losses to offset capital gains from much better performing assets. And...hopefully someone comes across this back-and-forth and it sets more realistic expectations for what they'll actually receive from Ohio Cashflow/Oz Realty (3-4% returns). I wish I'd been able to read it. 

Well, all the best to you.

 Based on what I'm reading sounds like you have a negative return, not a 3% return.

Oh yeah, it was a terrible investment. But to be transparent regarding the actual returns as a rental property (to compare with the advertised cap rates of 9%), I thought I'd leave out the loss from purchase/sale.

Quote from @Engelo Rumora:

Quote from @James Wise:

If someone is going to cry about their ROI% on 1 rental property over a tiny 3 year window, it shows that they have fundamental lack of understanding of how the rental property business works.

When cap rate and ROI estimates are provide, that is a general indication of the how the average of properties in that asset class will perform over time.

At any tiny window with 1 small sample size you can greatly outperform and underperform. The same property is going to have wildely differing years folks. You could have a 3 year stretch where 1 property has 1 tenant and no repairs. Doesn't mean that property will continue to perform with no repairs and no turnovers.

Gotta use your noodles folks.

My fault here mate. Usually we are very good at pre-qualifying and asking the right questions to avoid such situations with investors. Looking at historical correspondence in our CRM that is 5+ years old, I can see there were warning signs that I ignored. Not blaming anyone here but definitely Ohio Cashflow wasn’t a fit. We never wanted to “discriminate” against folks only buying 1 or 2 properties but looks like we will have to. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Owning 1 or 2 properties in a tertiary market like Toledo isn’t worth the risk, hassle or return. And like my mate Zach above, the most unsatisfied investors are ones that only own 1 and have a bad run for a year or two. They get frustrated and just want to sell. Of course, Ohio Cashflow’s to blame and “scarcity sales” tactics. But hey, Lonna is awesome and Engelo is a wanker. Even tho Engelo hired Lonna and all of our people are representation of the owners core values and beliefs 🧐

All good though, we take full responsibility and always stand behind our efforts. Never running away. 

You Ohio guys (probably running similar games) can pat each other on the back all the way to the bank. It behooves you to do so. I would do it too if I were in your shoes. 

(insert random expletives to get the full Engelo gaslight)
"Yeah mate, I've seen this kind of investor before. I should have known. They just don't get it. Even though they had 3 years of sub 3% returns, and just found a $hit-ton of mold in the basement  that will probably write off most of 2024's returns as well...yeah, they just don't get it. Like you said, they'll probably have a 3-year stretch where the tenant doesn't mind the sink's hot water faucet (that we didn't think to repair) not working. (Insert hollow apology, repeat the one compliment and how it means you have some grandiose company culture cultivated by YOURS TRULY, in an attempt to reassure future investors that "this investor, [despite his ability to understand simple numbers about investment returns], just doesn't get it.)"

(Ironically, "you" or whoever is writing for "you" admitted the mold repairs SHOULD cost much more than $2,500. And just to repeat what your real estate agent told me, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation.")

Man, good on you for making the business you've created, but reading through some of the other similar negative experiences, I'm reminded that it takes a particular kind of person to do what you do: to speak to people "face to face" and deliberately misrepresent what you offer without blinking, then pat yourself on the back while backhandedly blaming your customer when they're upset that you didn't come close to delivering on what you advertised. 

I can already hear the retort. I could probably write it for you, it's that predictable: some ad hominem blaming the investor for not getting it, while saying "you just needed to buy more overpriced properties from us." (It's actually amusing.)

What you're doing is NOT a grift. I would never say that. You DO provide cashflow...Ohio Cashflow. But you're not entirely forthcoming with honest financial expectations. I mean, you can't be, or you wouldn't have a business. (Again, SOMEONE I LIKE AT YOUR BUSINESS SAID THAT TO ME.) So again, good on you. But at the end of the day, you don't care about what your customers who have lost say, because we've already paid your bills and we're out of your hair. 

One last thing occurred to me:

Is "we take full responsibility" a fart slogan you've adopted and just copy and paste to every negative review? I mean, "take responsibility" for selling you a $65k property for that 's actually worth $50k three years later? Or, "take responsibility" for delivering you a property with 3% returns despite saying the investor should expect 7% returns (on an advertised 9% return property)?
Your response: "Returns will average out higher over time. You needed to buy more." Yeah, yeah..."I get it."

Best of luck "mate."

First, I appreciate someone taking the time to respond, even if much of the information is factually inaccurate. 

My in-line responses:

1. I will agree. He did say that better returns come with holding a portfolio of more properties. That said, what is the average return on 10 properties averaging 3-4%? Answer: 3-4%. Considering how old and run down the property actually was, combined with how little work Ohio Cashflow did at the time of purchase, the required repairs will undoubtedly just keep coming. I can't help but laugh as I write this. I mean, THE HOT WATER FAUCET IN THE BATHROOM SINK DIDN'T WORK! And the tenant during winter: "I can't sleep at night because every time I turn on the heater, rat urine smell comes out of the vents." Poor guy! Thank god we had it fixed.

3. If "The reason why you kept getting “marketing emails” with higher priced properties is because the market has significantly increased in value since you purchased." was true, why were all the initial offers on the property in the $51k range, roughly $14k less that what I purchased the property for? Or, why was the official appraisal at $50k? The truth is: had there been any appreciation in the area, comps in the area would have placed my property much closer to the $65k I paid for it. The truth is: turnkey HAS to sell properties way over their real values to stay in business. (Someone I like at Oz Realty actually said that.)

5. Well if she's not Ohio Cashflow's agent, I wonder why she told me her desk was across from Lonnna's?

6. This may be generally true, but my second tenant's water bill was in his name. I can concede this may have been done at error. But what is undeniably true is that I was hit with about $800 in water bills.

7. I get that your business is booming, and you probably do turn away clients. That doesn't mean Engelo doesn't use false scarcity as a sales technique. Those two facts are not incompatible. 

8. I'm not sure if the PICTURES of mold in the basement were manipulation to get the property cheaper. The (incompetent) real estate agent actually said, "I'd get that fixed. You don't want a person living in a place with that in the basement. It can ruin a foundation."

My final word: thank you again for the reply. Tell Lonna thank you. She's fantastic. Thank god I'm out of the property. Thank god for capital losses to offset capital gains from much better performing assets. And...hopefully someone comes across this back-and-forth and it sets more realistic expectations for what they'll actually receive from Ohio Cashflow/Oz Realty (3-4% returns). I wish I'd been able to read it. 

Well, all the best to you.