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All Forum Posts by: Steve Maye

Steve Maye has started 17 posts and replied 68 times.

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7
Originally posted by @Thomas Guertin:

I'm not sure if you are retirement age or just financially able.  If you are retirement age, I would analyze a deal like you would finance it so you know a good deal vs a bad one.  Then I would pay cash for the property.  If it yields extra income that you done need right away, I would use the extra income as a down payment for another property.  This way you only have one property with a mortgage.

A good rule of thumb is rent that is 1% or more of the purchase price.  So if you can only get $1700 in rent, than the max price you can pay is $170,000.

Tom

 What I am and have been all my life is a saver.  I have been blessed to have a great career with a great company.  I live beneath my means and saved so as to hit my retirement goal of 55.  It is not that I want to stop working.  Retirement allows me to do what "I" want to do, when I want to do it.  

I like your recommendation for property analysis.  If I put it together with the other quote from above, "you can make anything cashflow without a mortgage".  It provides a good way to recognize a good deal from a bad one.  So far, though, I have not met your rule of thumb.   My first property was $195K.  I am only getting $1700/month.  Means I need to look harder for better deals.

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7
Originally posted by @John D.:

Hi Steve-

    At a very high level, you could maintain your existing position today:

Rent/month- $1695
Taxes/month- $158
Insurance/month- $75
resulting Cash Flow/month- $1251

Or you could finance a total of 5 theoritically identical properties, each with say 20% down. In this manner with the same invested capital of ~$200k you would have 5 properties at 80% LTV each that look like this

Rent/month- $1695 x 5 = $8,475
Mortgage- $764 x 5 = $3,820 (assumes a $160k loan at 4% interest rate 30 year fixed)
Taxes/month- $158 x 5 = $790
Insurance/month- $75 x 5 = $375
resulting Cash Flow/month = $3,490

  By using leverage, you have significantly increased your cash flow, on the same $200k invested.

   Now this model is a little too simple.  You'd want to account for vacancy, property management, CAPEX, etc. to make sure you fully understood how the numbers would shake out, but at a high level I think this shows how leverage in many cases, can greatly increase your cash flow, leaving the amount of capital you have contributed fixed.

 THANK YOU.  Your simple model clearly shows how, with a little leverage, I could create greater cashflow with the same amount of investment.  The part that has always been counter intuitive to me was how I could make more money by having mortgage payments.

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7
Originally posted by @Jeff S.:

I think the bigger question@Steve Maye  is what do you want to do in retirement? Do you want to play in RE or do you want to spend your days golfing or what? Personally I don't think doing a lot of leveraging in retirement is a good idea because there are cycles and when things work their way back down you could easily end up hurt.

Will you make money in the market? For a while but then what? If you have what you need for retirement protect it. It is easier to lose then get back at our age.

 What do I want to do in retirement?  hmm...  My biggest driver to retire now at 54 is I want to move back home to Tennessee (where rental #1 is).  I have a good job, but my Dad is getting old and I want to be there to help him.  It would not be a full time care thing.  I just need to be available to him.  I want and need to do something.  I would get bored.  I have toyed with getting a traditional job, but after 30 years in a traditional job I am ready for a change.  Real estate investing could offer that along with the flexibility to tend to my Dad.

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7
Originally posted by @Thomas Guertin:

If you have no other place to put your cash, than this is a good deal.  If you want to analyze a deal like the poor folks then I would analyze it as if you had to take out a 20 year mortgage with 20% down.  If that is the case, then your mortgage is $1055, property tax is $158, insurance $75 and I would assume the difference is property management of $211? or does this include maintenance?

Rent $1695

Mortgage $1055

Taxes $158

Insurance $75

Maintenance/Cap ex/Vacancy - $424 (25% - 10% maintenance, 8% vacancy, 7% cap ex)

Property Management - $136 (assuming 8%)

Total cash flow - negative $153

This assumes that the tenant is paying for the water.  Although your current maintenance is very low because of the newness of the property, you will have to replace the roof, heating system, rugs, flooring, etc. over time so that you should account for it.

This is how I analyze the property.  Of course, if you don't have a mortgage, you can make anything cash flow.  My goal for cash flow is $100/month.

Tom

Great points, Tom.  I like this one, "Of course, if you don't have a mortgage, you can make anything cash flow."   

So, here is where my head is.   Aside from normal retirement savings vehicles I have saved other money.  Some was used to buy that first rental unit mentioned.  I have more to invest.  I could invest the cash in the stock market and maybe average 6%-7% return before taxes.  As a comparison, if I purchase a rental unit like this one and have no mortgage the return is about similar.  

I will early retire in about a year.  I look at the returns from these investments as a source of cash.  Which would be the better investment; stock market or rental unit?

As I read what you have written and consider the other replies I can see the relationship between having no mortgage and having greater cash flow now vs. having a mortgage with less cash flow, but more properties appreciating in value.  Am I getting it?

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7
Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

"ARV of the property right now- New home. Assume selling price ? $205,000.  Your cash total you put into the deal- $205,000"

So, you should be able to refinance around $150k +/- and use that cash for you next deal.  

Joe-  All of what you have written is correct.  I have zero debt on the first rental unit.  I could refi that to pull cash out for the next purchase.  I think the builder here may have some good offers.  If not, is there a preferred way or company to do such refi's that will keep related costs low?

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7
Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

If you have no debt on this property, you can refinance it to get your cash back out...usually between 70-80% of your LTV.  Based on your answer above, it appears as though you paid full price ($205K) for the property, 

"ARV of the property right now- New home. Assume selling price ? $205,000.  Your cash total you put into the deal- $205,000"

So, you should be able to refinance around $150k +/- and use that cash for you next deal.  

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7
Originally posted by @Edgar Ferrari:

From the number you provided I think it was a good investment.

A couple of things you will need for your math to be realistic long term is:

1. Estimate for average repair costs going forward- Based upon my first rental unit that was also new, average repair costs were zero, but that has only been for about 2 years of a new home.

2. Vacancy rate- In 2 years I have had 2 renters and zero vacancy.

3. Commissions for realtor- I pay 1/2 month (~$700) rent as a finders fee to my property manager when she locates a new tenant.  If you are talking about realtor costs when purchasing this property they would be paid by the seller.

4. Umbrella policy if you are considering to get this in the future. I have heard of but I am not familiar with umbrella policies.  What does this do for me?  I already feel I am paying too much for my landlord insurance.

As to your question on a next move, I would give serious consideration to the following:

1. Get some debt maybe buying 2 properties with 50% financing on these.   I am listening.  We paid cash in full such that we would have no worries of risk, but admittedly my experience has shown this to be a very low risk and we have the money to cover even if this did happen.

2. Consider what was the increase in property prices since you bought the first home vs the increases in rent in the same period. My guess would be appreciation was faster than rental increases but it can vary market to market.  There have been no rent increases.  I do not know if the property value has increased.

3. Prioritize buying discounted properties probably REOs but do a thorough review of property condition and assessment of costs of repairs. If you look at recent comparable sales and are able to see the pictures of the property sold and sq ft you might get an idea of the discount you are getting. Also Freddie and Fannie have very good programs for investors with very high leverage (I bought at 90%LTV with 4.375% rate).  I would do this.  There are two issues;  I am currently 600 miles away and I am not yet knowledgeable of buying, fixing up and renting REOs/ distressed properties.

To expand on point 1 the logic for getting some debt is the following:

1. if your return on a cash purchase is 7% a 50% leverage at 5% APR 30 yrs fixed will increase your return to 9% of the cash invested.

2. The appreciation play is double as you have exposure to twice the assets (but in the same way it plays against in the downside). Your inflation hedge is somehow better also as rentals are somehow correlated to inflation and since your mortgage payment does not change (use only fixed rate non recourse, I personally prefer 30yr fixed loans) this results that the weight of interest payments over time tend to be minimized as rents increase but payment remains constant. 

In summary I think you did the right purchase and got the correct returns but you might consider some leverage. you must feel comfortable with having to make monthly payments every month.  You have explained well the value of having a little debt.  I see it and I believe we (my wife and I) look at yet another rental unit as you have recommended. I will be retiring early.  I will retire soon at 55.   I see the income from these rental units as a primary source of income until I reach 59 1/2.  

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7
Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

@Steve Maye A followup to @Edgar Ferrari questions.  Ignore the 7%, and other percentages for now.  What are the hard numbers for the following items:

 Rent/month- $1695/mo

Taxes/month- $158
Insurance/month- $75
resulting Cash Flow/month- $1251

ARV of the property right now- New home. Assume selling price ? $205,000
Your cash total you put into the deal- $205,000
Any debt associated with the deal- $0

I do not understand these next questions.  Why does this rental purchase have anything to do with a next rental purchase that I have not even considered, yet?

Cost to buy/rehab of the next property if all cash
Rent/month of the next property if all cash

Taxes/month of the next property if all cash

Insurance/month of the next property if all cash

resulting Cash Flow/month of the next property if all cash

ARV of the property right now of the next property if all cash

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7

There is no financing.  I bought is and paid cash in full.  So that return represents everything including expenses such as the property management costs.

Post: Want another rental- Would appreciate advice

Steve MayePosted
  • Homeowner
  • Hendersonville, TN
  • Posts 68
  • Votes 7

I have a single rental property and have had no issues.  I am looking to purchase my second, but would appreciate some advice.

For my first property I asked for advice from a property manager who recommended purchasing a new home in the area.  Great location, schools, etc.  No issues renting.  No renter issues.  No repairs.  I bought the home and hired the property manager to manage the property as I live out of state (long story).  Everything there has gone great for me, but I just don't know if the return is what it should be.  I paid cash for the home at ~$200K.  Using the REIPropertyAnalyzer spreadsheet I got:

Cashflow / Initial Investment = 7%

Cashflow / Assets= 7%

CAP Rate = 7%

Now I am nearing retirement and moving back to that area.  I want to purchase a second property.  This time I want to do my homework to understand if what I did was smart or if I need to change tactics to maximize my return.  I have again talked to the prop manager.  Another new home of similar cost is available.  Rent would be similar, but this one would have about $600 more in property taxes, thus reducing my returns.

Am I looking at the right types of properties to get the most back from my cash?  Or am I just choosing properties that make my life as a landlord easier?  Any advice would be appreciated.