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All Forum Posts by: Sam Grooms

Sam Grooms has started 13 posts and replied 557 times.

Post: Value-Add in Phoenix

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918
Originally posted by @Cliff C.:

Thanks for sharing your experience!  How are you getting in contact with the owners of the apartment buildings you are interested? I started my journey a few years ago buying SFRs rentals and I now have enough equity that I am going to pull so I can pivot to MF. I am learning ways on how to get in contact with apartment building owners so I can start a conversation. 

Thanks again for helping us learn through your experience!  

Cliff 

This probably isn't the answer you want, but the short answer is: You don't. 

In the small multifamily space, you can contact owners directly with some success. However, in the large multifamily space, say 150+ unit properties, you're probably wasting your time. The brokers in any particular market have spent years, if not decades, building relationships with these owners. Even if you do get in touch with an owner and submit an offer, they'll likely run that offer by a few brokers, to get a pulse on the market. At a minimum, they'll run it by the broker that sold them the deal (this is customary). And all of these brokers are highly motivated to convince that owner to not accept your offer. 

That said, you can still get off-market deals. You just need to shift your focus from owners to brokers. It'll take months and years to build relationships with the brokers in a given market, but you'll see a much greater return on your time going this route. 

We compete for a quite a few marketed properties. We spend a lot of time in best and finals. Yet everything we've acquired since November 2019 has been from off-market leads, through brokers. 

Post: Value-Add in Phoenix

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918

That pretty much covers the value-add. Although there's definitely some additional LTL to be had (rent increases), considering we haven't completed the office, clubhouse, pool, and landscaping projects. Also, we're adding another unit to the property. There's potentially another $2M of value-add.

Post: 117-Unit Value-add in Phoenix Closed Today

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918

Clearly investors would have received higher returns had we held onto the property for longer. However, not many people will complain about a 40%+ IRR. And not many people would want to put those kinds of returns at risk in the hopes that the market gets hotter. Plus, we were able to provide them with another opportunity to roll their money into, that's looking like it might produce even better returns.

I just think of that old idiom: pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. 

Originally posted by @Kurt Granroth:

The question I asked to start this thread was "What beats apartment syndication returns for passive income?" and it's far to consider if index funds in the stock market fit that bill.  I do have precisely one data point in that regard, now, as my very first deal has sold. Now that its cycle has completed, I have final numbers that can be compared to alternate options.

In particular, what if I had used the initial capital to invest in VTSAX, the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index. That is as "passive" as you can get. In the alternate timeline, I simply collect the dividends rather than re-invest them and sell the stock on the same day as the MFA deal closed. Here are the results:

MFA
Multiple:
1.32x
Annualized CoC: 11.24%

VTSAX
Multiple: 1.51x
Annualized CoC: 17.5%

So, yeah, in this specific case, the stock market easily beat the syndication for passive returns.

Yes, I do get that the stock market returns are largely due to the inexplicably bullish 2020, whereas MFAs all tended to do relatively poorly that specific year. This deal was also considered somewhat under-performing which is why it was even sold so early, and so doesn't necessarily (hopefully) reflect the rest of my portfolio. I also still have tax benefits from the MFA including the 1031 where I'm pushing my sale proceeds plus the remaining excess passive losses that should be shielding me in the future. And finally, this is literally just one data point out of what will be many data points, so I really can't read anything meaningful from it.

Still... VTSAX for the commanding win, this time.

I think that says more about the MF deal you invested in than it does the stock market, or even MF in general. A 1.3x after nearly 3 years is not good. Especially being over the last three years, which have been some of the best ever for MF. Even a mediocre deal should have been able to match that 1.5x.

Post: To syndicate or not to syndicate ???

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918
Originally posted by @Greg Dickerson:
Originally posted by @Sam Grooms:
Originally posted by @Greg Dickerson:
Originally posted by @Sam Grooms:

First, decide what you want, then figure out if what you're doing will get you there. Don't feel like you have to move into syndication just because others are doing it. 

The people telling you to syndicate remind me of the investment banker in the fisherman parable. I'll post it below for those who haven't read it. 

Disclaimer: I've syndicated deals. $40 million in acquisitions in the last year. I'm now at a crossroads, where I have to decide if I want to grow into a business, or keep it small and have plenty of free time. It's not an easy decision. 

______________________________________

An American investment banker was taking a much-needed vacation in a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. The boat had several large, fresh fish in it.

The investment banker was impressed by the quality of the fish and asked the Mexican how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, “Only a little while.” The banker then asked why he didn’t stay out longer and catch more fish?

The Mexican fisherman replied he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs.

The American then asked “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman replied, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos: I have a full and busy life, señor.”

The investment banker scoffed, “I am an Ivy League MBA, and I could help you. You could spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats until eventually you would have a whole fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to the middleman you could sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You could control the product, processing and distribution.”

Then he added, “Of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City where you would run your growing enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But señor, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15–20 years.”

“But what then?” asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You could make millions.”

“Millions, señor? Then what?”

To which the investment banker replied, “Then you would retire. You could move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

 You can do both. It doesn't have to be either or. I had the most time and flexibility when I was doing the most volume in all my businesses. All it takes is a great leader (you) a great team, systems and a clear executable vision.

You do realize you sound just like the investment banker in the parable, right? You're proposing I spend my time now building a great team and systems so that I can have more free time later. Not to say there's anything wrong with that approach. It's the path I decided to take about a year ago.

 I know that story very well and I am nothing like the investment banker. You missed the “boat” (pun intended) on what I am saying.

First it’s an unrealistic story in the modern economy and serves as an analogy for the workaholic and fatal pursuit of growth for the sake of growth. If you live in a modern society you have to make a living. Especially if you want to give back and make a difference and an impact not just a living. You are not a fisherman living in a village where you don’t need much money to live and you do nothing else with your life other than exist.

What I am saying is you become a leader, delegator, motivator and find great people to run your business/businesses, you then invest profits in other assets that pay you and you can have it all and make a difference with your abundance. You don’t work on the business instead of in it you work on the people in your business so they can work on it for you.

I am the fisherman and literally lived on an island (Outer Banks) while building my empire while have all the time I wanted to do whatever I wanted. I had great teams, made good investments and have been able to do whatever I want whenever I want wherever I want most of my Entrepreneurial career.


Clearly, sounding like the investment banker offended you. I'm sorry for that. I did not say you were "like" the investment banker. Just that your statement was very similar to his in the parable. I'm sure you have a great life, and kudos to you, Greg. Mines not too shabby, either.

Post: To syndicate or not to syndicate ???

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918
Originally posted by @Greg Dickerson:
Originally posted by @Sam Grooms:

First, decide what you want, then figure out if what you're doing will get you there. Don't feel like you have to move into syndication just because others are doing it. 

The people telling you to syndicate remind me of the investment banker in the fisherman parable. I'll post it below for those who haven't read it. 

Disclaimer: I've syndicated deals. $40 million in acquisitions in the last year. I'm now at a crossroads, where I have to decide if I want to grow into a business, or keep it small and have plenty of free time. It's not an easy decision. 

______________________________________

An American investment banker was taking a much-needed vacation in a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. The boat had several large, fresh fish in it.

The investment banker was impressed by the quality of the fish and asked the Mexican how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, “Only a little while.” The banker then asked why he didn’t stay out longer and catch more fish?

The Mexican fisherman replied he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs.

The American then asked “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman replied, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos: I have a full and busy life, señor.”

The investment banker scoffed, “I am an Ivy League MBA, and I could help you. You could spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats until eventually you would have a whole fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to the middleman you could sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You could control the product, processing and distribution.”

Then he added, “Of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City where you would run your growing enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But señor, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15–20 years.”

“But what then?” asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich. You could make millions.”

“Millions, señor? Then what?”

To which the investment banker replied, “Then you would retire. You could move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

 You can do both. It doesn't have to be either or. I had the most time and flexibility when I was doing the most volume in all my businesses. All it takes is a great leader (you) a great team, systems and a clear executable vision.

You do realize you sound just like the investment banker in the parable, right? You're proposing I spend my time now building a great team and systems so that I can have more free time later. Not to say there's anything wrong with that approach. It's the path I decided to take about a year ago.

Post: 164-Unit Closed in Phoenix, AZ!

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918

The prior renovation team was able to turn a unit in 14-21 days when we only had one property, and we only needed them to do 5 per month. It's when we bought another 400 units over the next year and asked them to do 25-30 per month that they got overwhelmed and weren't able to scale. 

When you schedule to perfection (which is what 14 days is), you're going to have subs miss their installations or vendors miss a delivery, and now everyone down the line has to get pushed. The problem with that at scale is it impacts their businesses. Everyone that gets pushed won't trust you anymore and they'll double book you, or assume you can get pushed if they need to. (I should note that we do granite in every unit, and that's booked 14 days out, minimum. If we miss that date, its another 14 days to get it on the schedule). 

We now schedule our renovation to be 21-30 days, depending on timing of when we're taking on units across all properties. Sure we could do it faster, but now we can leave a day or two of cushion between each sub and vendor delivery. No one has to ever get pushed back. They can rely on the dates I schedule them. They also make our scheduling a priority. And if one of our guys calls in sick, we're not screwed.  

Post: 164-Unit Closed in Phoenix, AZ!

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
Originally posted by @Sam Grooms:
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
Originally posted by @Shiyan Cao:
Originally posted by @Sam Grooms:
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
Originally posted by @Shiyan Cao:

@Ben Leybovich

Congratulation on closing the deal! can you share the top 3 reasons why you choose Phoenix AZ over other popular places (TX, GA, etc)?

Population Growth

Job Growth

Timing in the RE Cycle 

Shiyan, to elaborate on Ben's message, Phoenix is in the top 3 in rent growth, population growth, and job growth. No market can compete on those fundamentals. It's also a lot easier to underwrite operating expenses in Phoenix. A big variable is usually property taxes. However, we have a law here that limits your tax increase per year to 5% (there are some other items that can trigger an exception, but they're easy to avoid). So we just underwrite a 5% increase every year and call it a day. Lastly, proximity. Ben and I both live in Phoenix MSA. I can get to any of our properties in 25 minutes. We know the submarkets well and can fine tune our underwriting moreso than someone across the country. 

To summarize:

1. Phoenix is #1 in multifamily fundamentals

2. Limitation on property tax increases

3. Proximity for us

 Thanks for sharing, Sam. Proximity to hot market is a big advantage IMO. Just curious what would you do if you live in a pricy and not so well market. Would you choose long distance? 

 You couldn't get me to buy in CA if you put a gun to my head...

 Now, Benjamin. I'm sure you'd choose to live in that scenario. 

 Samuel, this is why we don't place

investor capital in CA.

 Correct. But gun to your head, you're buying real estate in CA. 

Post: 164-Unit Closed in Phoenix, AZ!

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
Originally posted by @Shiyan Cao:
Originally posted by @Sam Grooms:
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
Originally posted by @Shiyan Cao:

@Ben Leybovich

Congratulation on closing the deal! can you share the top 3 reasons why you choose Phoenix AZ over other popular places (TX, GA, etc)?

Population Growth

Job Growth

Timing in the RE Cycle 

Shiyan, to elaborate on Ben's message, Phoenix is in the top 3 in rent growth, population growth, and job growth. No market can compete on those fundamentals. It's also a lot easier to underwrite operating expenses in Phoenix. A big variable is usually property taxes. However, we have a law here that limits your tax increase per year to 5% (there are some other items that can trigger an exception, but they're easy to avoid). So we just underwrite a 5% increase every year and call it a day. Lastly, proximity. Ben and I both live in Phoenix MSA. I can get to any of our properties in 25 minutes. We know the submarkets well and can fine tune our underwriting moreso than someone across the country. 

To summarize:

1. Phoenix is #1 in multifamily fundamentals

2. Limitation on property tax increases

3. Proximity for us

 Thanks for sharing, Sam. Proximity to hot market is a big advantage IMO. Just curious what would you do if you live in a pricy and not so well market. Would you choose long distance? 

 You couldn't get me to buy in CA if you put a gun to my head...

 Now, Benjamin. I'm sure you'd choose to live in that scenario. 

Post: 164-Unit Closed in Phoenix, AZ!

Sam GroomsPosted
  • Investor
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 583
  • Votes 918
Originally posted by @Shiyan Cao:
Originally posted by @Sam Grooms:
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
Originally posted by @Shiyan Cao:

@Ben Leybovich

Congratulation on closing the deal! can you share the top 3 reasons why you choose Phoenix AZ over other popular places (TX, GA, etc)?

Population Growth

Job Growth

Timing in the RE Cycle 

Shiyan, to elaborate on Ben's message, Phoenix is in the top 3 in rent growth, population growth, and job growth. No market can compete on those fundamentals. It's also a lot easier to underwrite operating expenses in Phoenix. A big variable is usually property taxes. However, we have a law here that limits your tax increase per year to 5% (there are some other items that can trigger an exception, but they're easy to avoid). So we just underwrite a 5% increase every year and call it a day. Lastly, proximity. Ben and I both live in Phoenix MSA. I can get to any of our properties in 25 minutes. We know the submarkets well and can fine tune our underwriting moreso than someone across the country. 

To summarize:

1. Phoenix is #1 in multifamily fundamentals

2. Limitation on property tax increases

3. Proximity for us

 Thanks for sharing, Sam. Proximity to hot market is a big advantage IMO. Just curious what would you do if you live in a pricy and not so well market. Would you choose long distance? 

Yes. Don't get me wrong, I know plenty of people that invest in the Bay Area and do really well. If I lived there, I would probably just invest in that area. However, when you start taking other people's money, you have to be more cautious and conservative. For me, good market fundamentals are a requirement to take other people's money.