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All Forum Posts by: Randy Bloch

Randy Bloch has started 5 posts and replied 256 times.

Post: Pay the income tax or Save for FI

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244

@Matt Pulkrabek I have asked myself similar question over the years....I am not self employed so it make sense for me contribute enough to get the company match...I have high W2 salary so tax deferral is valuable to me so i have continued to max out my 401k (18.5k) annual and invest in real estate after that.

Keep in mind there is loop hole (Rule of 72t) that allows you take distributions from your IRA prior to 59.5. Google the rule of 72t and IRA and read through this. I am planning to get financial independence at 45...dont think i will use the rule of 72...i can probably create enough cash flow from real estate or side gig until 59.5, but it is an option. i plan to use my real estate equity and CF to get to 59.5 and then my 401K to get me to 67 (social security) and I assume I will make some money along the way doing something.

Post: Stocks or stay liquid?

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244

I think you should hold to your rules as they make a lot sense.  You don’t want to find a real estate investment when the stock market is in a middle of a correction and the lose 10-20% of principal because of timing.  I have had the same struggle holding a lot of cash in the past, but I have gotten more comfortable with it over time.  Also, as my RE portfolio had gotten bigger I have decided that holding at least 10% of my net worth in a liquid money market fund makes sense.  Allows me to take advantage of RE deal or stock market correction when they happen or any emergencies that pop up.  Also, with MOney market returns @2.25% I don’t feel as bad when they were zero.

@Mathew McNeil - I’m interested in what u consider to be a low risk stock fund?

Post: Would you take 75%+ CoC with $200 monthly cash flow?

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244

@Dan Heuschele

I tend to agree with Dan, this question comes down to your appreciation assumptions. If you really think appreciation is going be negligent long term then I question the effort for those CF numbers. Even if you can get 2% appreciation LT then I think it is okay as you get the upside of the leverage. And really inflation should cause building material and labor to increase 2-3% per year so an appreciation assumption of 2-3% is logical. Where you need to be careful is if your market is tied to some microeconomics trend that would cause downward pressure on housing prices, like one industry or employer town where that employer or industry is shrinking and demand for housing is decreasing. Like a oil town or Detroit with the automakers

Post: Would you take 75%+ CoC with $200 monthly cash flow?

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244

@CJ M. Can respond to @Dan Heuschele point on your statement about having 20-30% equity in theses properties, but if you sold you would be breakeven. I don’t understand this? You have realtor commissions and some closing cost, but where is the other 20-30% of equity disappearing to?

Post: 225k in equity... What should I do ?

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244

I'm sure there are Charlotte people on BP that know banks that will due HELOC on rentals in your market. this is actually how I found the bank that I am using. I would put a post out there on this

Post: Cash Out retirement fund!! Is it stupid for me??

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244

@Chris C.  Why the high mortgage rates though?  Something doesn't make sense.  I can call call my broker right now and get rate at ~4.5%.  This could be a huge reduction in payment if you went from 6.5% to 4.5% and benefit your CF?

Post: 225k in equity... What should I do ?

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244

Hard to find HELOC on rental, but not impossible. I am in the process on two duplexes

Post: Cash Out retirement fund!! Is it stupid for me??

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244
Originally posted by @Chris C.:
Originally posted by @Randy Bloch:

@Chris C.  See response to your comments.

1) When you roll over pension to an IRA the investment opportunities can be much greater than the stock market. You could SDIRA like @Carl Fischer suggested. Inside of SDIRA you can invest in almost anything (private placement, Gold Bars, REI, A passive business, crowdfunding REI) I am sure Carl could do this part more justice than me. Also, if you were to just roll it over to a IRA with brokerage house (Schwab, Fidelity) You could invest in a wide variety of ETF's, REITs or mutual funds that are or are not connected to stock market. You could invest in bonds, REITS, commodities. Not sure of your definition of the stock market so will stop there.

2)  back of napkin calculation  

Option A take current balance of your 401k and make assumption on your compound annual return until 59.5.  Calculate the tax you owe if you were to withdrawal subtract it from the balance.  I think 8% return pretax would be fair assumption.  Technically, it would continue to grow beyond 59.5 as you wont withdraw it all at 59.5, you will just start withdraws.

Option B

sum up the $1800 per month additional cash flow you receive every month until you are 59.5. Technically, you should calculate the future value of this because you are not getting this all at one time.

Would be helpful to have a fee only financial planner that understands real estate help you with this model.  I am going to be consulting one of these with my exit plan as well.

3) is accounted for in analysis above, because you don't pay the penalty in option A

4) It really comes down to you are concerned with CF because you are semi retiring. I am pretty sure Option A is going return way more than option B, because you just have earn a rate return in your IRA that is greater than the interest rate on RE mortgages, which is probably lower than ~5%. That rate of return is going to be on higher balance because it is before tax and penalty. Plus you have the tax writeoff of the interest. I dont see anyway that option A is not higher....but you need CF to get to 59.5.

Another option is to start taking withdrawals from you 401K to supplement the cash flow gap.  There are specific rule on you how to do this prior 59.5 and not pay the penalty, maybe a CPA can chime in how the equal payments withdrawal of 401k works without penalty? 

I have given these scenarios a lot thought....as I am in similar situation at age of 45 looking to semi retire.  Well, I have never considered cashing out 401k, but I have 200K in cash and am debating do I pay off mortgages to get more CF, invest in more RE, or stock market.  I have decided you keep all my properties and the 401k as is and if i need to supplement my CF I will go get PT job that I like, perhaps in real estate.

 Thanks again for chiming in. I really appreciate the info and you are showing the holes that I was hoping someone would. The only thing that I have not shared is that the loans I would pay off are 8% loans. I specialize in Manufactured homes and there is very limited financing available for this investment type. Most of my financing for these are private money. That said even the bank financing I have on my conventional properties(not mobiles) is about 6.5%. Where is anyone getting 5% or below investment loans? I have excellent credit but those are the best rates I could find.

Maybe you could cash out refi your non mobile home properties? if you get rate of 4.5%...payment might stay the same, take the cash and pay off the mobile homes. You get the increase in cashflow and keep your IRA intact. Obviously, depends on how much equity you have and loan balances.

Post: Cash Out retirement fund!! Is it stupid for me??

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244
Originally posted by @Anthony Gayden:
Originally posted by @Chris C.:

This flies in the face of everything that we have ever learned about retirement accounts.  So I want to start this by stating that it is stupid for 99% of the people out there to cash out retirement accounts but I would like feedback on my situation.

Brief update on my situation:

  1. I plan on retiring from my full time job in June of 2020/ Cash Flow will be very important
  2. I am 44 years old
  3. I will be living off my rental, fix and flip income, and other real estate related activities
  4. My company is freezing our pensions effective June 30th 2019.  We have the option of rolling over this pension or cashing it out.

My thought is to cash out my 401k and pension and payoff as much real estate related financing as I can with the funds left after taxes and penalties.  This will accomplish the following.

  1. Increase monthly cash flow by $1800
  2. After paying 10% penalty I will save $4400 over what I would pay in interest in 2 years / In other words, interest savings more than pay the penalty
  3. In my opinion the taxes are a wash as I would have to pay those now or when I retire.

There you go,  please poke holes in this plan and tell me what I am not considering.

 There is a large penalty for cashing out a 401K. Basically it will be taxed as income. Also if it is a very large sum, you may be taxed at the highest tax rates. 

Example

Annual Income $80,000 

Cash Out 401K $525,000

total income for 2019 = $605,000

tax rate 37% = $223,850

10% penalty = $52,500

tax + penalty = $276,350

That is a huge hit. I cashed out a 401K a long time ago trying to pay off debt and I ended up with a large bill from the IRS and I ended up back in debt because I did not fix my spending habits.

Very good point Anthony!...i did not think of this being at highest tax bracket....and that would horrible surprise. 

Post: Cash Out retirement fund!! Is it stupid for me??

Randy BlochPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Minneapolis
  • Posts 257
  • Votes 244

@Chris C.  am completely aligned with comment to Thomas on balancing leverage, especially as you semi retire.

The mobile home interest rate of 8% is bit of twist....I would still probably not liquidate 401k, because you have tax benefit of writing off the interest.  I would analyze how tight your CF is going be if you have any other way to generate some cash flow or minimize expenses.

As far as mortgage rates, what type of properties do you have? (SF, 1-4 unit, 5+) You should be able to get sub 5% with conventional financing on 30yr Fixed. Even if you went and got portfolio loan you could get ~5.5% ARM that is fixed for 5yr.

You might want to consider the early IRA distribution exception, google rule 72t distribution. This would avoid the penalty and you could supplement you CF with. Would allow the remaining balance of your 401k to grow.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/02/112602.asp