All Forum Posts by: Fred Dray

Wow, sorry your sister encountered this.   I work for a property mgmt co in CA and here on my thoughts based on how I would handle the situation.   First of all, I agree with those above...how did he know the heat was off?  Normally, an owner/mgr can not enter the apartment without giving 24-hour notice.  And when signing a lease, I stress that...but in case of emergency (water leak/fire) we may have to enter...but won't do so without calling the tenant at cell and work and leaving a message explaining situation and need to enter.

I don't know that pipes freezing is that immediate that it requires the owner to break in.  Water flooding the uit is immediate.  After all, if the lease states (or not as strong in court) the owner said heat must be kept at certain temperature then how does he know how long heat has been off and how close pipes are to freezing?  Also, if damage is due to tenant neglect, then tenant will have to pay for repairs.  So all this leads to the question...is this an emergency and does the owner really need to break in at this point?  In your words, the owner said the broke in because "the pipes could freeze."  So, he better have some proof that the pipes "were or were close to freezing."  Could freeze is not the kind of excuse that should hold up in court unless it's stipulated in the lease.

Okay, owner decides there is need to enter.  Again, can owner not go somewhere and get a key to enter while at same time calling your sister to explain situation?  If I (an apartment mgr) decided I had to break a window to enter an apartment, then I would accept responsibility and pay for fixing the window.

I would advise you to have your sister document the entire incident in writing.  I would also have her submit a maintenance request or whatever the owner requires for repairs for the damage to the window/door.  In CA if an owner/mgr does not act on written request for repairs (at least two requests) a tenant may hire a contractor to do repairs (keep reciepts) and withold cost of repairs from rent.  Make sure this applies in NY.

If nothing in the lease stipulates that heat must be kept at certain temp to prevent pipes from freezing, then I don't think the owner acted properly in this situation.  The argument would center over was this an emergency that required breaking into the unit.  Even if it turns out the repairs are your sister's financial responsibility, the owner can not punish her by not having repairs made.  If she refuses to pay up front, then owner witholds them from security deposit after she moves out.  However, fighting it out in court may prove costly and time-consuming.  No matter who is at fault or responsible, the owner can not harrass your sister.

Definitely, have her move out at the first opportunity.   The owner can not randomly decide not having heat on justifies breaking in.  In my opinion there has to be some kind of written statement alerting tenant that leaving heat off could be an emergency.   Sounds like your sister has a fairly strong case to at least have the owner pay to repair damage he did while breaking in.

Best of luck and please let us know how this turns out.

@Alex Craig Wow, your post touched on all my concerns with the listings from the prop mgmt co ads I posted above.   They must have just rented several units because when I posted there were 12 listings and 10 were posted between 12/1 and 12/15.  Now to be fair, I am in beginning stages of choosing a property and was referred by a friend who works with a realestate investment co in memphis who uses the mgmt co posted...and I have not spoken with seller or mgmt co.  I had found a few properties on the seller's website I had interest in (and because of a recommendation and what I read on the internet, I think the seller is someone I would work with) and researching the mgmt co was the last step before contacting him.

You touched on the very thing I found missing in the mgmt co listings....

Aggressive leasing agents and quick responses. Our online response is super quick and my leasing agents are hungry.

I work for a prop mgmt co and have written thousands of listings on craigs list.  I've had units remain vacant for up to 30-days.  However, I would update the listing each week so perspective tenants would not know how long it's been vacant.   I could tell from this co's listings that the properties sat vacant for 30-45 days which leaps out at me as a negative.

Plus, each listing had basically been cut and pasted.  Different house, but same base description.  With each unit I have, I write a story targeted to the upper-income, higher educated tenant I want to attract and list positives like "You'll love opening your bedroom window to let in the morning sun...and if you're a plant lover...that sun will allow your plants to flourish."  The cut and paste suggests the person posting their ads was not hungry (which is the same term I thought of when reading the ads for the first time).  A prop mgmt co is so important, especially when my property is several thousand miles away, that I want someone who is hungry/dedicated/go the extra mile....because they will be taking care of my property. 

I could share more, but it's not fair to that company as again I have not spoken with them.  For that reason, I'm going to delete this post tomorrow as I stumbled into a means of evaluating areas...I can find top prop mgmt co's in any area, find their listings and just keep track as to how fast units are renting and even respond as a perspective tenant to see how hungry they are to rent to me. 

Have to say Alex, I like your approach/attitude as it mirrors mine.  In a difficult rental environment, a property owner should want someone who knows the market and is hungry to get/maintain business. 

I'm still wrestling with if I want to invest in Memphis and if I decide to, I will talk to the guy my friend works with...but I'll be checking in with you as well. 

Thank you and best of luck with your businesses.

@Mike D'Arrigo Thanks for weighing in Mike.  You make very valid points.  The $595 and $650 properties were listed on 1/17 (today) and were not part of the properties available when I listed the link on 1/15.  They have rented seven of the A and B properties since I posted, so I guess I should discontinue this thread.  My concern was that those properties had been available since 12/1-12/6 and I was wondering how long it should take to rent those type properties. 

I definitely agree with you about the high crime in Memphis and it's the main reason I'm hesitant to purchase anything there.  This would be my first rental and I've started in Memphis because the seller I'm working with has several properties there. 

I agree with you and @Jay Hinrichs about buying A or B properties.  I suppose Memphis is attractive because those type houses are in my price range.  But do the negatives in memphis justify the risk of buying there when I will be trusting someone else's advice/judgement?  Again glad you took time to share as I'm realizing I should investigate other areas/markets.  Best of luck with your investments.

Hi @Jay Hinrichs and thanks for sharing your experiences.  I manage an apartment complex in Glendale, CA and it seems the response rate is the same as in Portland.  I understand houses and apartments are apples and oranges and time vacant varies in different areas.  This would be my first purchase of a rental property and Memphis is one of the areas the agent I'm working with has properties for sale.  Interestingly enough, I was focused more on area/crime/cost/return on income and just about everything but finding a tenant.  When I saw how long the properties had been available, it raised a red flag that keeps getting redder due to my hesitation over Memphis crime rate.   I think I would have to apply your advice about buying an A property to Memphis due to diversity in neighborhoods.  Thank you

@Douglas Skipworth, @Derrick Craig, thanks for sharing your experiences with how long a nicer house (I'm assuming the units in those ads are A or B) should remain vacant.  I work for a property mgmt co in CA and 30-days vacant would be too long.  However, just can't assume that is true for every market. 

@Ben Roberts, thanks for your offer.  I am working with someone in the area.  However, I'm not sure about the prop mgmt co they are using.  Thus, I was questioning how hard they were working to rent the units listed.

@Fred Dray If there is someone staying with a tenant does the guest have any rights to the rental? If they are not on the lease couldn't I evict the tenants on the lease and consider the guest as someone who is trespassing?

In CA if someone stays at a residence for more than 30-days and recieves mail there, they become a tenant, so that implies they have rights even if not listed on a lease.  That is why it is important to define how long a guest is allowed to stay in a unit (a term less than 30-days and then stating after that period they must complete the application process and be accepted). 

As for the second question, let me use an example.  Let's say no where in a lease does it state "No pets allowed" or spell out conditions for having a pet such as "Cats accepted with extra $250 security deposit."  Then suddenly a tenant has a cat.  At this point, they are not breaking any provision of the lease, so you can't evict or suddenly tell them to get rid of the cat.  So, if there is no provision in the lease concerning "guests" you can not evict because the tenants are not in violation of the lease by having a guest living with them.

Thus, one needs an addendum to the lease to deal with any new provisions such as defining how long guests may stay.  And, depending on rules of your state you must give 30 or 60 day notice for an addendum to go into effect.

However, in CA, there is a (I've never seen it in writing so not sure what to call it) guideline of two tenants per bedroom and one in the living room based on size of unit.  So, if there are currently three tenants living in a one-bedroom unit...adding a another person (unless by birth) would violate that guideline.  Not sure how one would fare trying to evict on that, but it exists and is something an owner could check into to possibly get rid of a guest.

Let me also stipulate, I'm not an attorney.  So, my comments and suggestions are based on experience and please don't take any action based on what I write. 

This should be addressed in your lease and if not, make sure it is in all future leases.  In other words you have a section that states: Only those listed (and type their names in) on the lease can reside in the apartment.  Guests may stay no more than two weeks in any six month period.   Any guest intending to stay for more than two weeks must submit an application for approval by landlord.   As @Daniel Pena says, make sure to address it with the current tenants by adding and addendum.  You do not want a tenant living in a unit that is not on the lease.  Why?  If they are not on the lease, you don't have any right to enforce rules/regulations or evict them.   So I advise you request an application, run credit and treat them like any other perspective tenant to ensure they qualify and you want them as a tenant.   Good luck with this situation.

Yeah, after 40 years they deserve a break.  Again, kudos to you for being so kind.

Oops, missed the limited income.  You are approaching this from a business perspective by slowly raising rent.  Why not hold off on the rent raise for six, eight or ten months and let them pay $50 a month to be held as the security deposit.  Then raise the rent.  That way you get sec dep and eventually a rent raise.  In any event, I commend you for caring about their plight.

Wow, my every instinct tells me you should ask for a deposit.  You never know when a relative will show up to stay for a few weeks and cause issues.   Is income an issue with them?  You could always ask them to pay $50 or $100 a month to get at least $500 sec dep.  Your excuse for asking for a sec dep could be your attorney advises you to do so or your Insurance company demands that you do it for a lower rate.

You are blessed to inherit such wonderful tenants.  I understand your desire to keep and placate them.   I have learned not to let emotion affect my decisions.  The property could be rented out for a higher rate and there are other great tenants out there who you would get a security deposit from.   Do you want to get top dollar for your investment? 

From a business perspective, I say ask for a deposit because if you have/plan to purchase other properties...you need to treat all tenants equally.  It could be discrimination to ask for a deposit from a tenant at one property and not ask for a depost from a tenant at another property.  However, it you're not hurting for income it could be good karma to leave things as they are.  

Let us know what you decide and how it worked out for you.