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All Forum Posts by: Michael Vu

Michael Vu has started 7 posts and replied 59 times.

Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

Michael VuPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 60
  • Votes 25
Originally posted by @Joshua Brunner:

@Michael Vu I can relate, I recently gave up on a similar duplex for my first deal. I am not scared of a project, however I decided a smaller single family home would be an easier way to start my real estate journey.

 It's that balance of wanting to do your first deal but also not wanting to take on such a project that it keeps you out of the game for years.

Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

Michael VuPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 60
  • Votes 25
Originally posted by @Laura George:

@Michael Vu

If it’s your first deal I guarantee you that your numbers are wrong!!!

It’s okay just know that you will make many mistakes. It doesn’t really matter as long as you can make the payments on the note.

I recommend looking for 200$ per month cashflow. Then if your numbers are wrong and you’re only half right then you’ll still get 100$ in cash flow.

As for the renovations. Well...... get ready for a good life lesson of getting kicked in the teeth. But that’s ok too. Just know that the contractors are professionals at not doing what they say they will do. If anyone wants to argue this fact please don’t waste your time. The evidence is everywhere.

I’m a contractor so I know what contractors do and say and don’t do what they say. Hope this helps

Thanks for the advice, Laura! That's certainly a good way to protect yourself by being a little bit more conservative. 

Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

Michael VuPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 60
  • Votes 25
Originally posted by @Alice Huang:

@Michael Vu

Hey Mike, how long has it been on the market? Any idea why they’re selling?

It's been on the market for about 2 weeks. Not exactly sure why the seller is selling, he is an older gentleman so may be trying to offload his portfolio. Or the property has too many issues?

Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

Michael VuPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 60
  • Votes 25

Thank you so much to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I've really learned a lot, especially about perspective when it comes to looking at older / worn down homes. 

My agent got in touch with the seller's agent about potential negotiations / repairs and they came back saying they didn't want to reduce the price, offer any credits, or do any repairs. 

In that case, it is definitely the right move to walk away. Hurts to have spent lost money on due diligence, but I guess this is part of the process/journey of learning. Will work on better analyzing before making an offer for the next.

Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

Michael VuPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 60
  • Votes 25
Originally posted by @Bill F.:

@Michael Vu

On buy and hold deals like this, I'd look at it through the lens of all four means of wealth generation: cash flow, appreciation, debt pay down, tax savings. Only you can answer the later. 

 The cash flow number is so close to $0, that for the sake of argument let say it is $0 since some months it will dip negative and others will run into the black. If it nets out positive, that's a bonus. As time goes on, rent growth will outpace expenses, but you also don't cater to the tenant class that is the easiest on rentals. 

100 yr old homes in C class neighborhoods in the rust belt are a dime a dozen, so unless there is a seismic shift supply and demographic trends, I wouldn't bank on appreciation above the inflation rate of 2%. 

All we have left is debt pay down. As a benchmark, lets assume you hold the asset until the end the loan. Assuming no upfront repairs, you'd have an outflow of $24k and 30 yrs later get $217k ($120k grown at 2% for 30yrs) gives you a Compounded annual growth rate of around 8%. Taking out inflation gives you a real return of 6%. 

Not bad, but not great. we know there are repairs to be done and that will make the the return go down. So the question is, who will pay for what repairs and how much will they cost. This is where the skill comes into play being a REI. It looks like anything over $10k in repairs out of your pocket cuts returns in half.

Now this isn't meant to me an accurate model, just a back of the napkin SWAG to let you ask the question: Is 6% worth the risk? If yes, what level of repairs will make this deal not worth it? 

When you put it this way, it definitely doesn't sound like it is worth it. I would hope for something like 6-8% ROI just solely based on cash flow and then the appreciation / loan paydown / tax benefits on top of that.

Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

Michael VuPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 60
  • Votes 25
Originally posted by @Michael S.:

@Michael Vu - try this exercise to change your viewpoint on the deal.  Let's say the roof was new, the plumbing was up to date, electrical was to code and acceptable, there are no tenants, and the price tag on the property was $150k.  Would you pursue the deal?  If the answer is no, then you have your answer on your original question posed to the forum.  This property does not conform to the 1% rule if that was your goal (unless you can get the seller to drop the price over $25k).  In addition, the money for the repairs will either need to come from your pocket or a separate line of credit if available (assuming you are financing the deal).  I'd move on to something else, especially for your first deal.  

That's a really great way to think about it. Thanks for that perspective change! In that case, is this the way I should analyze a deal to make an offer? What makes the deal worth it, and then account for the age/wear of the property?

Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

Michael VuPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 60
  • Votes 25
Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:

I would think of it more in terms of what will it cost to address those issues and where will you stand afterwards. Don't think of purchase price but total price (purchase + rehab + holding/closing costs) and run your numbers off of that. In this case, replacing the knob and tube and addressing the foundation cracks, leaks and other issues will add up to a pretty sizeable rehab and probably makes it not worth it. But if the market value for such properties is, say, $200,000, then maybe it still is worth it. 

How do you recommend putting rehab costs into my calculations? Would those ultimately affect the Cash on Cash ROI?

Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

Michael VuPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH
  • Posts 60
  • Votes 25
Originally posted by @Syed H.:

Just some points without knowing your specific market: 

4% vacancy, 5% maintenance, & 8% capex is laughably low. Especially on 100+ year old buildings & especially if you don’t have scale.

For buildings like this, you need to go through a whole building’s mechanicals and capex items and estimate a monthly capex number properly. 

For yearly maintenance, speak to some small local owners. 

      Thanks for pointing that out. I guess you can't just use a cookie cutter % for every property analysis

      Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

      Michael VuPosted
      • Rental Property Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH
      • Posts 60
      • Votes 25
      Originally posted by @Bryan Devitt:

      @Michael Vu take the deal numbers, get the price for repairing everything correctly and run the numbers with having to fix/replace it all in the first two years because if you don't have the reserves, they will all fail in the first two years. Figure out how much you can pay for the place based on those numbers or what they need to fix to make it work. If they don't want to, move on but there is always a way to make it work it's just a matter of if the seller wants to do it

      Is it better to have the price reduced the amount of the repairs, or to have those repairs paid for? Or is that dependent on how much reserves you'd like to dig into.

      Post: How Many Issues is TOO Much to Make a Deal Not a Deal?

      Michael VuPosted
      • Rental Property Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH
      • Posts 60
      • Votes 25

      @Anthony Vicino I think I agree with you as well. I came into this deal thinking it was going to be a base hit, but with all these uncovered issues, it's starting to look like it will be an ongoing headache / cash killer and not what I had originally planned. Thanks for the break down and advice!